let's talk about the tech industry

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mrwillhorlen
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let's talk about the tech industry

Post by mrwillhorlen »

nobody likes it, I don't even have to explain why. everyone who has a job there has either been suicidal and/or constantly wishing to quit. the companies don't help either, they seem to throttle innovation and instead of staying on available and fine technologies they keep creating new ones every moment. and that is just the tip of the iceberg, someone here can probably explain it better than I do. to me it is in fact no different than your typical white-collar job, which it is. if you are considering to work on the tech industry, then DON'T. you're gonna thank me later. go for trade instead or something, that's all I have to say.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by RogerMexico »

As a member of the small-business tech industry far, far from any FAANG company: this is a full-nuclear hot-take.
mrwillhorlen wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:44 pm nobody likes it, I don't even have to explain why.
Citation needed.
mrwillhorlen wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:44 pm everyone who has a job there has either been suicidal and/or constantly wishing to quit.
The process of creating software isn't for everyone, no. I was already depressed long before I monetized my love of computer programming.
mrwillhorlen wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:44 pm the companies don't help either, they seem to throttle innovation and instead of staying on available and fine technologies they keep creating new ones every moment. and that is just the tip of the iceberg, someone here can probably explain it better than I do. to me it is in fact no different than your typical white-collar job, which it is. if you are considering to work on the tech industry, then DON'T.
You're just kind of saying words here.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by Contest6284 »

yeah, i know plenty of folks in the tech industry that love their jobs. you're making a pretty big generalisation, what experience do you have where this is true? /gq

equally, depression isn't as clear cut as liking or disliking your job; or anything else, for that matter. if it were, it'd be super easy to cut that part out of your life and ipso facto cure everything, right?

it's pretty fun for me, as a hobbyist turned freelance programmer, developing software daily. saying that, i haven't had a role in an organisation or within an IT department, which is what i think you're alluding to.
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Hooray!

Post by Starfia »

Ever thought of doing a podcast, mrwillhorlen? > _ >

I suppose you could interview Craig Federighi, John Gruber, Bill Gates, Ken Kocienda, RJ Mical, Lea Verou, Max Howell, Jen Simmons, Kyle Drake, Victoria Wang, or Brent Simmons, just off the top of my head. Bunch of disillusioned quitters.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

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Re: Hooray!

Post by Cobra! »

Starfia wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:38 pm Ever thought of doing a podcast, mrwillhorlen? > _ >

I suppose you could interview Craig Federighi, John Gruber, Bill Gates, Ken Kocienda, RJ Mical, Lea Verou, Max Howell, Jen Simmons, Kyle Drake, Victoria Wang, or Brent Simmons, just off the top of my head. Bunch of disillusioned quitters.
I mean, half of those people, from what I can tell, are CEOs who exploit the companies they work for, and it's workers, to better themselves. Giving themselves massive bonuses as their company sinks, and forcing their employees to crunch.

Bill Gates is a pretty bad role model in-particular. Having used many monopolistic tactics to make Windows the dominant OS in the 90s, taking Amiga out of the picture and putting Apple on the brink of bankruptcy. Not to mention normalising the idea of data collection and privacy breaches built into their OSes later on.

I think the reason those people aren't "quitters" is because they're not there to work in an industry they love, or to advance technology, but to make a gravy train for themselves, and half of them succeeded.

It feels like the equivalent of saying "Amazon isn't horrible to their workers, just ask Jeff Bezos!"
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by RogerMexico »

yequari wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:48 pm I'm sure tech being so terrible is why so many people are making career changes into the field.
I'd be careful with that line of thinking. There's an entire tech influencer industry telling people that they can make six figure salaries after 6 weeks of bespoke, artisanal vimeo videos behind a paywall. Let alone the bootcamp landscape.

I don't want to get it twisted here, there are a lot of truly awful stories around the industry.
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Re: Hooray!

Post by Starfia »

Cobra –

Well, at least this more closely resembles a discussion. ^ ^
Cobra! wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:28 pm I mean, half of those people, from what I can tell, are CEOs who exploit the companies they work for, and it's workers, to better themselves.
I disagree about the character assessment, and we can have fun speculating about that at greater length. But to settle the question of whether you're precisely correct: I listed eleven – which five do you think are CEOs?
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Re: Hooray!

Post by Cobra! »

Starfia wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:50 pm Cobra –

Well, at least this more closely resembles a discussion. ^ ^
Cobra! wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:28 pm I mean, half of those people, from what I can tell, are CEOs who exploit the companies they work for, and it's workers, to better themselves.
I disagree about the character assessment, and we can have fun speculating about that at greater length. But to settle the question of whether you're precisely correct: I listed eleven – which five do you think are CEOs?
Well, most of the names you mentioned didn't return any results when I looked them up. But of course I recognised Bill Gates right away.

Craig Federighi is a vice president of Apple, and an ethical company Apple is not.

I thought Jen Simmons was a CEO of Mozilla, but upon checking again, she's just a designer there.
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Re: Hooray!

Post by RogerMexico »

Starfia wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:50 pm I disagree about the character assessment, and we can have fun speculating about that at greater length. But to settle the question of whether you're precisely correct: I listed eleven – which five do you think are CEOs?
This is largely a deflection of the main point they were making for pedantry. Choosing Craig Federighi, Bill Gates, and Ken Kocienda as your examples is still kinda weird.
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Re: "Weird"

Post by Starfia »

RogerMexico wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:22 pm This is largely a deflection of the main point they were making for pedantry. Choosing Craig Federighi, Bill Gates, and Ken Kocienda as your examples is still kinda weird.
I was responding to mrwillhorlen's characterization that no one likes working in the tech industry – seemingly the main point – by listing people who evidently liked working in the tech industry. My ears are open to elaboration on what you find weird about that.
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Re: "Weird"

Post by Cobra! »

Starfia wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:55 pm
RogerMexico wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:22 pm This is largely a deflection of the main point they were making for pedantry. Choosing Craig Federighi, Bill Gates, and Ken Kocienda as your examples is still kinda weird.
I was responding to mrwillhorlen's characterization that no one likes working in the tech industry – seemingly the main point – by listing people who evidently liked working in the tech industry. My ears are open to elaboration on what you find weird about that.
I mean, you could say that about anything. Going back to Amazon, you can't say everyone hates working at Amazon, because Jeff Bezos doesn't.
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Re: Hooray!

Post by Starfia »

Cobra! wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:17 pm But of course I recognised Bill Gates right away.
I'd say we have our home planet in common, then. Always heartening. (I also prefer the British spelling.) ^ ^
Cobra! wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:17 pm Craig Federighi is a vice president of Apple, and an ethical company Apple is not.
Yet another avenue for enjoyable tangential discussion, I'm sure. But the original question on which I was weighing wasn't about ethicality so much as whether people liked working in the industry.

Craig was at NeXT before Apple – rather a while to spend doing something one doesn't like. He's been grey-haired for a while, and selecting any random five seconds of him on video (plenty to choose from), I doubt any poll would conclude he looks remotely resentful or worn down. That's the kind of illustration I was providing.

Jen Simmons is at Apple leading the WebKit team after previously working at Mozilla – she's lately been a primary voice in determining the course of the Web standards for which we're supposedly here on account of our mutual enthusiasm. She recently posted this on Mastodon. If that was your experience, how much would you have to like your line of work to remain there for a decade? Presumably that's how much she likes it.

A few independent folks: John Gruber is a programmer and the author of Daring Fireball for 20 years – last episode of his podcast, he was going on about how he's never felt "burnt out" and doesn't see it coming. Brent Simmons works at Audible now, but maintains work on NetNewsWire with a team of volunteers for free, and he's written about why that's better for everyone including him. Who does what they don't like for years, for free? And Kyle Drake and Victoria Wang are responsible for Neocities. Did that pioneering effort which seemingly preceded this community arise from a continuing blur of self-disdain and hatred of which I remain unaware?

And, I mean… I've been assuming most people here count as developers, including mrwillhorlen.

To gently loop back and recap then: to me, "no one likes the tech industry" seems a touch thin.
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Re: Hooray!

Post by Cobra! »

Starfia wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:13 pm
Cobra! wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:17 pm But of course I recognised Bill Gates right away.
I'd say we have our home planet in common, then. Always heartening. (I also prefer the British spelling.) ^ ^
Cobra! wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:17 pm Craig Federighi is a vice president of Apple, and an ethical company Apple is not.
Yet another avenue for enjoyable tangential discussion, I'm sure. But the original question on which I was weighing wasn't about ethicality so much as whether people liked working in the industry.

Craig was at NeXT before Apple – rather a while to spend doing something one doesn't like. He's been grey-haired for a while, and selecting any random five seconds of him on video (plenty to choose from), I doubt any poll would conclude he looks remotely resentful or worn down. That's the kind of illustration I was providing.

Jen Simmons is at Apple leading the WebKit team after previously working at Mozilla – she's lately been a primary voice in determining the course of the Web standards for which we're supposedly here on account of our mutual enthusiasm. She recently posted this on Mastodon. If that was your experience, how much would you have to like your line of work to remain there for a decade? Presumably that's how much she likes it.

A few independent folks: John Gruber is a programmer and the author of Daring Fireball for 20 years – last episode of his podcast, he was going on about how he's never felt "burnt out" and doesn't see it coming. Brent Simmons works at Audible now, but maintains work on NetNewsWire with a team of volunteers for free, and he's written about why that's better for everyone including him. Who does what they don't like for years, for free? And Kyle Drake and Victoria Wang are responsible for Neocities. Did that pioneering effort which seemingly preceded this community arise from a continuing blur of self-disdain and hatred of which I remain unaware?

And, I mean… I've been assuming most people here count as developers, including mrwillhorlen.

To gently loop back and recap then: to me, "no one likes the tech industry" seems a touch thin.
Thanks for explaining the people you mentioned.

To be fair, working somewhere for a long time doesn't necessarily mean you enjoy it. In this economy, it's hard to find a good paying job, and IT jobs pay very well, so they don't want to risk their livelihoods. Many women from what I've been told are afraid to speak out against any hate or harassment they receive as they risk getting fired or punished in another way.

I think the claim that "no one likes the tech industry" was an exaggeration. I think it's more "nobody in low positions with no power or autonomy whatsoever likes the tech industry".
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by Blog47177 »

mrwillhorlen wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:44 pm nobody likes it, I don't even have to explain why. everyone who has a job there has either been suicidal and/or constantly wishing to quit. the companies don't help either, they seem to throttle innovation and instead of staying on available and fine technologies they keep creating new ones every moment. and that is just the tip of the iceberg, someone here can probably explain it better than I do. to me it is in fact no different than your typical white-collar job, which it is. if you are considering to work on the tech industry, then DON'T. you're gonna thank me later. go for trade instead or something, that's all I have to say.

viewtopic.php?t=312






Coffeezilla explains some of this on how companies end up Toxic and it's tied to the Young entrepreneur arguments falling flat on average. Also consider the recent issues at Silicon Valley where hyping up Cryptocurrencies sparked issues over how the VC's in the tech industry has now resorted to investing in scams all for the money.

The issue here is that Venture Capitalist spew off their toxic work environment on the employees and the companies they have investments in like FAANG and Bytedance.

Yes I speculated in another thread wondering how much better the "Tech Industry" would be if It was operated by ESOP's and Worker Cooperatives with no direct success though. Sure Tech Jobs are always labeled as prestigious until stories on how insane some of them became due to their work environment comes out.
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Re: Hooray!

Post by Starfia »

Cobra! wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:34 pm I think the claim that "no one likes the tech industry" is an exaggeration.
An even more succinct version of my original reply, thank you.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

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Blog47177 wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:55 pm Yes I speculated in another thread wondering how much better the "Tech Industry" would be if It was operated by ESOP's and Worker Cooperatives with no direct success though.
In one of my previous jobs I worked in tech as part of the marketing arm of a manufacturing company that is ESOP. The benefits and retirement package were good but it was functionally the same as any other company. I don't know that it's a panacea.
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Re: Hooray!

Post by Cobra! »

Starfia wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:00 pm
Cobra! wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:34 pm I think the claim that "no one likes the tech industry" is an exaggeration.
An even more succinct version of my original reply, thank you.
I meant it was intended as an over-exaggeration. Obviously not everyone is going to hate the industry, I think the point they were trying to make was that for most everyday people like you and me, it will suck. Like all companies nowadays (or ever, really), they're made to benefit those on top, at the expense of those below them. This isn't a problem specific to tech, mind you, but it seems just as prominent there, and in the case of video games, more so!

To me, your reply just came off as pedantic.
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Re: Pedantic

Post by Starfia »

Cobra! wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:07 am To me, your reply came off as pedantic.
Thank you for the compliment. ^ ^

And more substantially, I'm glad we turned out to agree on the truth of both the "exaggeration" and your more relaxed interpretation of it.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by mrwillhorlen »

RogerMexico wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:50 pm As a member of the small-business tech industry far, far from any FAANG company: this is a full-nuclear hot-take.
mrwillhorlen wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:44 pm nobody likes it, I don't even have to explain why.
Citation needed.
mrwillhorlen wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:44 pm everyone who has a job there has either been suicidal and/or constantly wishing to quit.
The process of creating software isn't for everyone, no. I was already depressed long before I monetized my love of computer programming.
mrwillhorlen wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:44 pm the companies don't help either, they seem to throttle innovation and instead of staying on available and fine technologies they keep creating new ones every moment. and that is just the tip of the iceberg, someone here can probably explain it better than I do. to me it is in fact no different than your typical white-collar job, which it is. if you are considering to work on the tech industry, then DON'T.
You're just kind of saying words here.
i've went to /g/ and i heard it right from themselves, i don't think i need to correct you tho
Starfia wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:38 pm Ever thought of doing a podcast, mrwillhorlen? > _ >

I suppose you could interview Craig Federighi, John Gruber, Bill Gates, Ken Kocienda, RJ Mical, Lea Verou, Max Howell, Jen Simmons, Kyle Drake, Victoria Wang, or Brent Simmons, just off the top of my head. Bunch of disillusioned quitters.
the irony of shilling for entrepreneurs in a clearly socialist community
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Re: "Weird"

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Starfia wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:55 pm
RogerMexico wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:22 pm This is largely a deflection of the main point they were making for pedantry. Choosing Craig Federighi, Bill Gates, and Ken Kocienda as your examples is still kinda weird.
I was responding to mrwillhorlen's characterization that no one likes working in the tech industry – seemingly the main point – by listing people who evidently liked working in the tech industry. My ears are open to elaboration on what you find weird about that.
To be honest, I do agree with you that the original post is an exaggeration, a generalization, and probably even a bit inflammatory. I still think your reply is a bit on the nose, though. I generally don't think that taking a small list of names is a good point at all, and the inclusion of a couple very big names just makes it more confusing to me.

For example - I know for a fact that the art animation industry sucks. People work way too much for way too little, get burned out easily, there are few companies dominating the market and deciding the standards for everybody, etc. Lots of young and inspired artists dream of having a career in the animation field, only to be spat out of the system years later tired, poor, and disillusioned. It would not be a controversial statement to say that it's a "bad" industry at the moment, and even warning people from taking a career in it.

If I were to take a list of names of great animators that changed the course of the industry in the last decades, and names of independent animators that are able to do what they love with passion, and the few who were able to "make it" even in today's climate - that still wouldn't be a rebuttal to the main point that for most common people, it would probably be a disaster for their time, finances, and mental health, to pursue a job in that sector.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by madness »

mrwillhorlen wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:22 am i've went to /g/ and i heard it right from themselves
on echo chambers and epistemic bubbles
mrwillhorlen wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:22 am the irony of shilling for entrepreneurs in a clearly socialist community
please keep it constructive and refrain from being abrasive. you had an opportunity to explain your criticism of the examples provided and you're ruining it. I also would suggest you take a break from 4chan, reddit, etc. for the sake of your mental health and so that you don't spread the toxicity here. this is your final and public warning. don't shit on us
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by themizarkshow »

mrwillhorlen wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:44 pm everyone who has a job there has either been suicidal and/or constantly wishing to quit.
As someone that's neurodivergent, disabled, and relies on remote work in order to live / stay independent... the tech industry is the reason I'm alive today. That's not to say I love everyone I work with, or would recommend it to everyone in general, or don't complain about it to my therapist regularly, but it has enabled me to make a life for myself where other jobs and industries have completely failed me (and others like me).
mrwillhorlen wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:44 pm they seem to throttle innovation and instead of staying on available and fine technologies they keep creating new ones every moment.
I absolutely agree with this point you're making, but it's not exclusive to tech. This comes down to bad management and the impacts of it on planning, investment, and R&D. Tech has a huge amount of people that were good at a technical role but were promoted above their ability level (ie: from a developer to a manager); and while that's not uncommon in other industries, there are so many of these folks at the highest levels of tech leadership simply bc they were founders or early hires. Not because they are qualified for the role or know what they're doing.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

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themizarkshow wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:44 am the tech industry is the reason I'm alive today.
same. after years of planning it was my only reasonable choice for survival, and in retrospect I could not have made a better decision for the conditions of my life - it would not have been possible. it was absolutely terrible for my mental health, but I am alive because of it, and I would not condemn it outright without considering the situation of prospective workers beforehand.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by mrwillhorlen »

madness wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:19 am don't shit on us
I suggest you may calm yourself down, madam. Nowhere in the OP did I ever explicitly attack YW and/or its ideals, I'm just complaining and pointing out problems through my own phrasing, also this is a corporate problem which this movement actively seek to counter.

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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by MysticalComp »

I mean, I understand why people are upset about this post, but truth be told? I kinda agree with the fact that working in tech is shitty

As someone who lives in a third-world country that suffered heavily from COVID, it felt like I was ridiculously lucky not to lose my job simply because I worked in tech. But with these recent layoffs, I saw a lot of friends being fired, and those who weren't are extremely on edge and afraid to lose their jobs. Even with higher salaries than the average brazillian worker, even with perks like being able to work at home, I don't know any tech worker who is not suffering from burnout and anxiety.

Sometimes I feel like the tech industry is the herald of what neoliberal bullshit we will see in the rest of the world. At least here in Brazil, tech is seen as a "disruptive and innovative field", but more often than not, these words just mean "let's make shit worse for the workers". In a country like Brazil, where the unionization of workers was kind of common, where worker's rights were somewhat respected, it feels like the tech industry is a lawless land that pushes through all of this.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by RogerMexico »

mrwillhorlen wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:22 am i've went to /g/ and i heard it right from themselves
That explains an enormous amount about this thread.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by Blog47177 »



Here is more a tech pundit talks about how Linux has changed.

Also back to the thread this is a sample of Tech Workers who resigned due to where the OP is saying here. Yes I aimed more against the VC's that set off the toxic effects in tech but it's more than that where the OP has argued.

https://www.business.org/finance/loans/ ... aptialist/

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/te ... heir-jobs/


https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252 ... ad-culture




https://www.cio.com/article/230762/why- ... -jobs.html



viewtopic.php?t=125


Some of the other things we discussed on how toxic the tech industry is was originally focused on Elon Musk related companies like SpaceX, Tesla and Twitter specifically. We talked about that in the Twitter thread.
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Re: Exaggerations

Post by Starfia »

Ray wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:06 am To be honest, I do agree with you that the original post is an exaggeration, a generalization, and probably even a bit inflammatory. I still think your reply is a bit on the nose, though.
Thank you for the comments, Ray. ^ ^

I'm not sure what in people's minds directs them to concede the existence of an exaggeration, but then fault me for simply honouring the meaning of the words the author selected.
Ray wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:06 am … If I were to take a list of names of great animators… that still wouldn't be a rebuttal to the main point that for most common people, it would probably be a disaster for their time, finances, and mental health, to pursue a job in that sector.
Correct, but it would be a rebuttal to the point that it would definitely be a disaster for everybody. As I mentioned to Cobra, I'd be happy to expand the list to hundreds or thousands and ask them how they felt, but only one was needed. I went ahead and gave eleven.
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Re: Exaggerations

Post by Ray »

Starfia wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:13 pm
Ray wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:06 am … If I were to take a list of names of great animators… that still wouldn't be a rebuttal to the main point that for most common people, it would probably be a disaster for their time, finances, and mental health, to pursue a job in that sector.
Correct, but it would be a rebuttal to the point that it would definitely be a disaster for everybody. As I mentioned to Cobra, I'd be happy to expand the list to hundreds or thousands and ask them how they felt, but only one was needed. I went ahead and gave eleven.
Ok, gotcha. Just so we understand where we're coming from - I think that most people, upon reading OP's statement of "everybody hates it", realize that it's a clear over exaggeration and not something to be taken literally. Which is why, I think, your comment about "well at least one person didn't hate it" might have been recieved as pedantic, because it felt like poking fun at the phrasing rather than talking about the issue at hand (which one can agree or disagree about). IMHO!
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The value of precision

Post by Starfia »

Ray wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:40 pm … Which is why, I think, your comment… might have been recieved as pedantic, because it felt like poking fun at the phrasing rather than talking about the issue at hand.
Ray – I think your way (and Cobra's way, if they match) are respectable enough, and amount to a difference in style of responding to what might be hyperbole.

Again, I don't consider my response "making fun" of anything, but a form of respect: "I'm treating you as intelligent enough to have said what you mean." If the person did exaggerate – a form of stating something other than what they meant – I'll do my best to give them a suitable response. If they want to restate the claim more clearly and try again, they can expect my honest thoughts on that version from me as well. That's how I'd generally hope to be treated if I made a claim, and why I was happy to be regarded as pedantic.

I value all this partially because I'm genuinely interested in the truth of any question, and partially because there's been more sincere, widespread, and confused online discussion of social and other issues last decade than ever, which I believe calls for more precision and clarity than ever, especially since ambiguity and equivocation are one of the main refuges for those who wish to deliberately confuse for the purpose of persuading while evading the truth of something. Maybe it makes little difference this one time, or any one time, and I think there should be room for a little easygoingness and humour just about everywhere, but in general I think it's the correct habit for a whole Internet of strangers aiming to improve things together.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by Lyonid »

I am a student who worked little jobs in tech during my studies and currently am thinking a lot about what I actually want to do after I am done with my Master's. Reading all the posts on this thread still leaves me with all kinds of questions and doubts, but I would like to give you a perspective of someone who got in touch with the tech industry in a very local way - as in the firm next door kind of local.

The "dream" of starting out in tech is so very vague and difficult to grasp for me. Am I working in tech when I am working a remote job for some silicon valley corporation? Am I working in tech when I join a fruit basket start-up? Am I working in tech when I consult/program/whatever for a smaller software company? Am I working in tech as a freelancer making little sites for little places?

I talked to many different software developers and consultants at a bunch of local meetups who looked fairly happy and content. Thinking small in this regard is quite important to find your place in this domain. We get thrown into this pool of tech nerds who are supposed to be successful and rich and smart in the eyes of society, yet it's a job like any other with a touch of more funding and buzzwords.

"Tech" is socially so mystified and people outside of our bubbles have absolutely no idea what we are doing at these jobs - and the industry knows that. Training IT workers on their social impact, their value for big corps(e), the harmful potential of the software that they created for them is crucial. It's all very generalized and needs way more re-thinking. And for a industrial branch as modern as Technology, it has been slacking as much as all the others to value workers as human beings.

Anyway, if any of you have any tips for a desperate student to find a job that will not fill them with hatred and moral struggle, please hmu :roll:
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by madness »

Lyonid wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:34 pm Anyway, if any of you have any tips for a desperate student to find a job that will not fill them with hatred and moral struggle, please hmu :roll:
gosh there is so much that can be said but I'll be rolling out some thoughts one at a time.

1. I was a desperate student too, about a decade ago. reflecting back on it, the idea of children/young adults choosing their specialization for their future work is absolutely ridiculous. it assumes that we will never change during a period of critical growth. most students are guessing at what they are going to like and then making a commitment to pursuing it. truthfully at those ages we are too inexperienced to commit but we don't have much of a choice. we are all making a mistake to some extent and I think the realistic expectation to have is to accept that it could be a bad idea and that you may have to do a course-correction in the future.

2. I chose tech because I was lucky enough to have had experience with computers as a child and decided that it was likely the best/only skill I had that I could be employed with. the problem is that (simplifying) I barely had anything in common with other tech workers, and as I grew up I felt completely alien to them and even grew to resent them. but here's how I perceive the problem:

every industry has a certain "archetype" or model psychology for their worker. this psychological model fluctuates on regional or technical or subject-matter differences. the closer you fit into this model, the more likely you are going to enjoy where you work and be successful at it. the further you stray from this model, the more likely you will despise the work environment. it is very similar to the concept of neurodivergency, but it is relative to the work culture. only after sufficient time and experience can you really analyze the work culture and decide what aspects you like and dislike about it, and then decide what sorts of changes (if any) need to be made to make your life better. sometimes it takes a job change, sometimes it takes a profession change. sometimes it means abandoning everything that you worked hard for. but as long as you have realistic expectations and know that you will have to continuously strive and potentially sacrifice to improve your situation, you will be fine.

3. uh look most work sucks but there are a lot of nice things about tech, such as the wages are decently high and there's a ton of benefits. there's definitely a lot of people working harder in worse conditions for less money. perhaps billions of people. participating in this system is always going to be a moral struggle and it is always going to fill you with hatred (unless you are the model employee). do what you have to do to survive, and if it turns out to be an ethical nightmare then do a course-correction and pay off your social debts in the future. so long as you continuously study yourself, your personal history, your environment, your industry and such, there will open up an opportunity for growth and correction.

4. I could go into details about my experience working in the tech industry, but I'm not going to. not just for privacy reasons but also because it's traumatic. there are visceral reasons why some of us want to flip the world upside-down, because really what other choice do we have.

it's best to channel that energy into something progressive and life-affirming

cast away illusions and prepare to make mistakes
we seek greater knowledge to make greater decisions when the time for making decisions appears - to be the most capable versions of ourselves in any situation that arises - this is why we study - this is why we learn
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by Lyonid »

madness wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:40 am every industry has a certain "archetype" or model psychology for their worker. this psychological model fluctuates on regional or technical or subject-matter differences. the closer you fit into this model, the more likely you are going to enjoy where you work and be successful at it. the further you stray from this model, the more likely you will despise the work environment. it is very similar to the concept of neurodivergency, but it is relative to the work culture. only after sufficient time and experience can you really analyze the work culture and decide what aspects you like and dislike about it, and then decide what sorts of changes (if any) need to be made to make your life better. sometimes it takes a job change, sometimes it takes a profession change. sometimes it means abandoning everything that you worked hard for. but as long as you have realistic expectations and know that you will have to continuously strive and potentially sacrifice to improve your situation, you will be fine.

3. uh look most work sucks but there are a lot of nice things about tech, such as the wages are decently high and there's a ton of benefits. there's definitely a lot of people working harder in worse conditions for less money. perhaps billions of people. participating in this system is always going to be a moral struggle and it is always going to fill you with hatred (unless you are the model employee). do what you have to do to survive, and if it turns out to be an ethical nightmare then do a course-correction and pay off your social debts in the future. so long as you continuously study yourself, your personal history, your environment, your industry and such, there will open up an opportunity for growth and correction.

[...]

it's best to channel that energy into something progressive and life-affirming

cast away illusions and prepare to make mistakes
Thank you. It's funny how all these things never are foreign to oneself, but they just have to be said once. There is always high expectation to immediately start out in the job you studied for and love it, but I see no issue with making the mistakes I have to make. Your archetype explanation really helped me - not only for this context. I couldn't be further from that archetype, yet we could take so much strength out of that fact.

Especially with tech, there are too many doors that stand open for students. The fact that I get daily messages by recruiters despite having an empty profile is pure privilege. I will find a way, obviously, and I happy to have a place like this where people might share my struggles.
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Re: Personal viewpoints on working in tech

Post by Starfia »

MysticalComp wrote: As someone who lives in a third-world country that suffered heavily from COVID…
madness wrote: I chose tech because I was lucky enough to have had experience with computers as a child…
Lyonid wrote: I am a student who worked little jobs in tech during my studies…
Lovely and even somewhat moving to hear a few varied personal stories with involving both upsides and downsides. I've also done a few years of web development for a local organization and plenty for myself. I wouldn't say it's my career, but I know now that I hunger to program after lacking the opportunity for even a few days. I love it so much that I've lowered the priority of all my other work to promote it to the role of my career. (And I'm not even Jeff Bezos. The mind boggles.)

(Lyonid – I think you were "working in tech" while doing those smaller tasks. If not tech, then what were you working in?)
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by Blog47177 »





We can go all the way back to Theranos to find out how toxic working in a tech startup is like. In this case the startup in question was in violation of the SEC and FDA. Theranos ended up being a company that abused their powers all for greed. Yes this is one of the biggest scandals prior to FTX getting caught in a scam. I'm less sure now on what a person can do to avoid being employed at scam companies. They got caught up with the CEO playing cult leader tactics though.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by Blog47177 »



https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/sec ... -rcna76212

https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertai ... 526790002/


We got an update on how toxic tech is today and its related to celebrities facing allegations that they hyped up a crypto scam according to the SEC.
LOS ANGELES — Actress Lindsay Lohan, rapper Akon and several other celebrities have agreed to pay tens of thousands of dollars to settle claims they promoted crypto investments to their millions of social media followers without disclosing they were being paid to do so.

Lohan, Akon, recording artists Ne-Yo and Lil Yachty, boxer and internet personality Jake Paul, and adult film performer Michele Mason all agreed to pay more than $400,000 combined in disgorgement, interest and penalties to settle the claims, the Securities and Exchange Commission said Wednesday.

None admitted or denied the SEC's findings as part of the settlement. Two other celebrities named in the SEC's complaint, rapper Soulja Boy and pop singer Austin Mahone, did not reach a settlement with the SEC, the agency said.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by themizarkshow »

Lyonid wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:34 pm Anyway, if any of you have any tips for a desperate student to find a job that will not fill them with hatred and moral struggle, please hmu :roll:
Others have also responded in a great way, but what I focus on with myself and those I manage, mentor, and/or coach is to remember that work does not define us. It is a means to an end, and we all need to spend time focusing on what those "ends" look like.

For me, it's playing games with friends, creating artwork, writing poetry, saving unwanted cats from shelters, and advocating for others like me who don't have the means or energy to fight for themselves 24/7.

Society doubled-down on the capitalist notion that we ARE our labor, and its a lie. I exchange my labor for the ability to remain independent, live a comfortable life, and focus on things I care about. It's a failing of our education systems that we don't prepare students for that reality and allow school to eat their entire life for two decades.
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Re: let's talk about the tech industry

Post by kazewa »

Is tech the same as IT...? I work in IT on public sector, not programming at all and my salary is average. It's relaxing, doesn't stress me out, quite frankly I love it. I could work from home if I wanted to, but I like seeing my colleagues so I go to the office every day. Now I know this isn't the kind of tech where you make new inventions and stuff, but well, isn't tech or IT quite a vast thing. This field is not my passion nor is it my dream job, yet I still enjoy it.
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