Yesterweb Forum

if you're on these forums, i'm guessing you probably have some issue with the modern internet. i mean it's literally called "Yesterweb" forum

i think simply having a personal website and being in this "indie web" community is a great step, but what are some other things that we can do to help build a healthier internet?

thanks!

a couple of us have been thinking about this question for over a year now. sadness and I could do an exhaustive analysis on the positive and negative aspects of personal websites, which is why we have shifted away from advocating for them as a goal.

instead what we have done is switched to something a little more methodical that is applicable both online and offline, and this is the summary of it:

first we work to identify social problems. that is: we observe the interactions people are having and the way they are using their environment, we think about what's good and bad about it, and we try to identify the root causes of such behavior. this is how we form our hypothesis

then we think about potential and practical solutions to these problems. we want to strengthen the good aspects and weaken the bad aspects. this is how we form our experiment

then we act in accordance with our understanding and our desire to transform the environment into something better by directly intervening to attempt to improve the situation. this is how we gain experience through practice

then we reflect on the outcomes of our actions by analyzing the new situation that we have played a part in creating, getting to know our successes and failures, identifying mistakes and thinking about how to fix them in the future. this is how we gain knowledge from practice

and the cycle repeats.

so for example:

we have bad experiences on social media all of the time. so why does this happen? we do a little research and we learn that these platforms are pretty much designed to make you miserable because it drives up your engagement with the service. the truth is that making users engage in unhealthy behaviors is good for business, particularly since these businesses make advertising money, and their goal is to make you see as many of these advertisements as possible and to get you to get others to see those advertisements as well.

so then we have a vague idea of what the problem is, how can we fix it? we can stop participating. we can try to participate differently and learn how to re-use the existing infrastructure in a positive way. we can create new spaces/infrastracture that avoid these problems. we can attempt to educate others on the source of the toxicity and then discuss plans for their potential solutions.

so what is it that people attempt to do to solve these problems? sometimes they make forums, mastodon instances, discord servers, facebook groups, personal websites, tilde communities, etc. some of them go quiet or offline forever.

(it's hard to recommend a single course of action for any individual without understanding their particular situation, so you really have to get to know someone before you can work with them. this is already very difficult to do with the platforms that are immediately provided for us, which is why small communities are often a necessary first step)

whatever we decide to do may ultimately be beneficial but it will most likely being us new problems, and that is why our action and reflection has to be cyclical. after everything we attempt to do, and after reflecting on experiences doing so, we gain a more nuanced perspective on what the problem actually is.

I know this is all abstract but it's impossible to give accurate advice on what to do without knowing further details. everyone's issue with the internet differs with every individual. first we have to talk to each other to discuss the issues that we are having, and then we can work together to solve them.

hope that helps.

Here in sweden, some people just started a "förening" - don't know the english word, i wanna say co-op, wikipedia gives me "volunatry association". As in a legal entity with members, a board, by-laws, secretary etc etc.

Anyway one of those, for running instances of (open-source) software for online life, starting with a Mastodon server. The idea i believe is that it'll be free to use them, but members decide how things are run, what services to offer, etc, and the member fee should cover the costs.

Maybe not breaking new ground here, but i appreciate this way of running things! Instead of being coerced into some corporate silo who profits off of my presence in invisible ways, i'm paying for the costs together with my online neighbours.

And there somewhere is my point... when i'm using online services i'm always thinking "to who's benefit is this here? how is my behaviour molded?" and it's stressful. Being able to say "it's here for me, probably" is a bit of a relief.

madness wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:21 am instead what we have done is switched to something a little more methodical that is applicable both online and offline, and this is the summary of it…

I think I perceived this approach to determining a course of action the first time I even found Sadness' site, let alone the Yesterweb. It's good to hear it's intentional and somewhat structured, and it's always refreshing to study abstract thinking.

sixeyes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:48 pm Here in sweden, some people just started a "förening" - don't know the english word, i wanna say co-op, wikipedia gives me "volunatry association". As in a legal entity with members, a board, by-laws, secretary etc etc.

The general term is probably just "organization." (Perhaps "a local organization" if it's specific to a town or city. "Non-profit organization" is also a legal term to contrast with corporations and afford certain tax advantages.)

That also sounds like the general principle of focusing on community by working more locally rather than leaning too hastily into the convenient solutions corporations can offer. I'm not sure whether geographic locality is critical since the point of the Internet is to cross distances anyway.

It might be interesting to have a small site or Mastodon server lead by a group made of, say, one resident of each participating country.

I really love the Etiquette section on the Yesterweb's about page. I find that by following those easy rules, any internet space becomes much more healthier.

Just the other day, I had this happen - a person on a public telegram group had left some kind of rude comments about a controversial topic - but they didn't sound like a troll, as much as a good natured person exasperated by their perceived "lack of nuance" on the topic. I tried asking them to elaborate, keeping my comments in good faith and constructive even in spite of them directing passive aggressive comments to me - just explaining my view politely but firmly.
They eventually *did* elaborate, even if still kinda rudely - and imo, they brought up a good point. Even though we ended up disagreeing in the end, it became clear we were "allies" in the same worldview, disagreeing on the methods but not the essence, and the considerations they made stuck with me anyways.
We didn't become buddies or anything, but they even thanked me for at least reading their point. It was pleasant, and I think we both got a little bit out of it.
Then another person came and just clowned on them - and it was striking to see how they turned aggressive again in a heartbeat.

And it's, like... Yeah, certain corporations *want* us to be outraged and angry and fighting. But rather than accept it, we must fight harder to stay human. Resiste the urge to say the sarcastic, post ironic thing that will make us "win". Engage only in good faith or don't engage at all; don't engage fruitlessly in conversations or spaces that are designed to produce that kind of outrage reactions, cultivate spaces where people can talk to each other as persons and not users.

What kind of platform it happens on is secondary, imo. There can still be absolutely toxic communities in decentralised, self hosted, tiny scale chatrooms - and small virtuous spaces within bigger, overall crappy social media. But each of us can probably help make the internet a little better by just... Being better, while on the internet.

Ray wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:12 am [....]

And it's, like... Yeah, certain corporations *want* us to be outraged and angry and fighting. But rather than accept it, we must fight harder to stay human. Resiste the urge to say the sarcastic, post ironic thing that will make us "win". Engage only in good faith or don't engage at all; don't engage fruitlessly in conversations or spaces that are designed to produce that kind of outrage reactions, cultivate spaces where people can talk to each other as persons and not users.

What kind of platform it happens on is secondary, imo. There can still be absolutely toxic communities in decentralised, self hosted, tiny scale chatrooms - and small virtuous spaces within bigger, overall crappy social media. But each of us can probably help make the internet a little better by just... Being better, while on the internet.

very excited to read all this. a lot of interesting things were discovered in our old discord server, but the most interesting thing was definitely how even an individual can transform a situation by going against the tide using their self-discipline. if we are consciously trying to make a space better, and we are aware of the consequences of our actions, then it will likely change for the better over time.

of course this is not ideal, as it's usually a lot of work for one or two people to handle, but sadly this is where we are at: we have to start at the individual level before we can reach the organizational level.

our discord server ultimately failed because the growth of the server was dramatically outpacing its organizational capacity, that is to say there were not enough committed organizers compared to interested participants. we were also increasingly dealing with the problem with opportunism (trying to steer the direction of the community toward self-serving interests).

creating a virtuous space is difficult, but not impossible. eventually it should become an organized effort, but we have to be very careful who we organize with. sometimes it feels like all the people you want to organize with are never online because they are busy with their lives, and all the people you don't want to organize with are always online.

it takes a very rare set of circumstances (both altruistic and terminally online due to forces outside of one's control) to have a sustainable, progressive, and transformative ~grassroots~ organization on the internet. normally if anyone was altruistic enough and had a choice, they would vastly prefer working offline as it will probably be immensely more satisfying and effective.

I think that, in addition to Netiquette, we need to teach kids how to curate their own Internet experience and be safe online:

• You don't have to read an entire webpage if it bothers you. You can click Back or go somewhere else.

• If you hate a certain website, that's okay. The Internet is for everybody, not just you, and different people like different things.

• There is nothing wrong with someone not liking your favorite thing, or liking something that you dislike. It's just a way people are different, not a moral failing. Hate-views are just going to make you angry.

• Always mouseover links to make sure of where they go before clicking them. (I learned this one the hard way.)

• If someone's an asshole to you, block them and move on. Don't engage, or you'll just make both of you angrier.

• If you're too "wound up" after something somebody says to you online, log off for a while and try to calm down before you reply.

• Read everything you type before you hit Send or Post. Is that what you truly want to say? Is it phrased in a way that makes your message clear? Does it make you sound angrier than you feel?

• If someone tries to meet you in person without your parent or another trusted adult around, and you are a minor, that is a MAJOR red flag and you should block them immediately.

• Never list your IRL address, hometown, or last name on a public website. You don't want strangers to find you, because they don't always have your best interests at heart.

• Do not make a list of all your triggers publicly available. You've just given bullies ammo to use against you.