community structure and subdivision

[greyasashe]

To be blunt, YW is becoming bloated and disorganised. I think this is a structural issue, and one that might well be solvable.

Many people in the YW community are fully on board with and invested in the YW stated principles. A lot of us want to make active, meaningful change to the way we use the internet beyond our own personal activity, and want to empower people to use the internet in a way that liberates them. I don't think the free-for-all, ever-growing structure of the discord server lends itself to this. Piecemeal changes could be made but I think a core change in approach is warranted.

My idea for the yesterweb is to serve as an intermediary space to help connect people to smaller collectives that go about achieving yesterweb goals in their own individual ways. Think of it like a web of anarchist collectives - anarchist communities tend to be no larger than a couple dozen people in size, but they communicate and share resources with other small groups to work toward a larger goal. The utility here lies in the small scale - tight-knight communities can communicate and collaborate efficiently, they can stick to clear goals, they can be of a unified mind about their target issues.

So the yesterweb, in addition to the primarily-social space that the main server has become, could offer a service to funnel individuals who genuinely want to work into groups that align most closely with their vision of the web. I'm currently spinning up a small collective with the people I best align with, and I have a serious intent to accomplish things and do some real work to achieve our goals. I know I'm not the only one.

You could even think of YW as a sort of ideological "standard", that collectives can attribute their name to while not getting bogged down in the community management of thousands of people with different lives, ideals, and desires from the wider YW space.

I want to know what you think about this. I'm also looking for tech-inclined, skilled people to join with my group to help with the practical side of things. Please, send me a message here or on discord at greyasashe#6184

[AuzzieJay]

This sounds really good on paper. But I do have some concerns.

1. Collectives - according to this, groups will specialize in very specific parts of the web revival/resistance. Don't we already have this with the Indieweb? One of the greatest strengths of the Yesterweb is bringing together folks that rarely would rub shoulders- such as artists and devs. What would most likely happen is these groups would silo again. I worry that an al a carte Yesterweb may neglect other sectors of the Yesterweb. For example, tech savvy people will build FOSS programs while the artists of the Yesterweb will form artist groups. They may work towards their own goals, but they would do so without the cross-pollination that is so unique to the Yesterweb.

2. Anarchy - The Yesterweb- or really any movement will not benefit from anarchist collectives that do not look to a central authority. I'm not saying you are assuming an anarchist collective, but you did mention them. An Anarchist collective would have no reason to have a centralized hub or a centralized method of organizing- that would be antithetical to an anarchist collective. We could be weaker separate than we are together if it is not done correctly.

3. Points of Failure - There are also more points of failure in such collectives- as certain spokes may be created or infiltrated by grifters attempting to make a quick buck. Unless there is some way to ensure that a Yesterweb-adjacent group is truly nonprofit or noncommercial then it could fail miserably.

Of course an anarchist collective would not need to adhere to any of the Yesterweb standards except for by good faith alone. It would make more sense to give some kind of power to the other Yesterweb-adjacent groups to kick out or accept other groups claiming the YW banner. Without some sort of moderation even a right-wing 'free-speech' group could usurp substantial space in the YW.

That being said, I do think the Yesterweb needs to transform. It's important to begin these conversations and I really appreciate you putting so much thought into this. I'm curious what others think as well.

[amethyst]

Having been around for a little more than half of the Yesterweb's existence, I also feel this urge for transformation. I suppose a more accurate way to describe it would be a lack of action; some of this is personal, and some of it is communal.

I still find a great amount of value in the social aspect of the Yesterweb; as Auzzie mentioned. the cross-pollination present here is somewhat unique for a community with our stated principles. I've uncovered new interests and had great laughs with people I would not have met otherwise. Despite that value, I noticed that I've tended toward checking the server less often, as the community was only half of the reason the server appealed to me initially. The other reason was the desire for change, which seems to account for a smaller share of activity on the server than it has in the past. (I don't have numbers on that, but messages from some of the mods and other community members—including this very message!—demonstrate that many of us are feeling the shift.)

So the yesterweb, in addition to the primarily-social space that the main server has become, could offer a service to funnel individuals who genuinely want to work into groups that align most closely with their vision of the web. I'm currently spinning up a small collective with the people I best align with, and I have a serious intent to accomplish things and do some real work to achieve our goals. I know I'm not the only one.

You could even think of YW as a sort of ideological "standard", that collectives can attribute their name to while not getting bogged down in the community management of thousands of people with different lives, ideals, and desires from the wider YW space.

I like this idea, and it's excited me every time a form of it has been proposed, but I wanna emphasize Auzzie's second point about diluting our strength if we split up incorrectly. Ashe, at one one point you mentioned being able to come into a shared Yesterweb space and present the accomplishments of one's smaller group—"imagine being able to come to the yesterweb and say 'heres what we accomplished'"; I love that, and it'd definitely bring more of the energy I remember feeling when I first joined, that energy that IRL community groups thrive on. However, we seem to be in the opposite position of those in-person groups: many smaller groups will often organize together around a particular cause on which they agree, creating an ephemeral collective greater than the sum of its parts; right now, we seem to have a (somewhat aimless) larger collective that should be fractured into smaller, more focussed groups. How can we fracture in a way that best allows us to form a unified front when necessary?

I'm also looking for tech-inclined, skilled people to join with my group to help with the practical side of things. Please, send me a message here or on discord at greyasashe#6184

Catching up on the discussions I missed in the last month or so brought back the excitement I had when I first found this place, so I will definitely be reaching out.

I'm looking forward to everyone else's input on this, and I'll be keeping a close eye on the Discord server to follow any developments that happen outside of this thread.

[greyasashe]

Excellent points, both of you. I'll address Auzzie's points first:

1 - Collectives:

This is going to be something that is down to each group but I would strongly suggest that if we go about this that we encourage on the site and in all YW communication that groups be made up of diverse talent. The reason I specifically asked for tech proficiency in the OP is that my group currently has an abundance of artists with moderate tech skill. I don't know how much more can be done to combat this.

2 - Anarchy:

An Anarchist collective would have no reason to have a centralized hub or a centralized method of organizing- that would be antithetical to an anarchist collective

I disagree. If you'll allow me to extend the metaphor, the YW wouldn't be the "state" under this paradigm, it would be a forum (in the traditional, non-web sense) where groups can coordinate where they need without being beholden to it.

3 - Points of Failure:

You're right, and I don't have a simple answer to this. This whole issue could be a topic of its own, because its wide reaching and is going to require regular upkeep. FWIW, I still think that the Yesterweb name should belong to Sadness and the YW staff - they should reserve the right to determine who they associate with. Yesterweb requires moderation and that's not going to change - but the activity of individual collectives doesn't fall under that purview beyond a simple yes or no for collaboration.


As for Amethyst's point: That, too, is going to need to be an ongoing discussion. I think a major strength the YW has in approaching this is that the community is already established, and there's no reason that this structural change should pull people away from the community - it would ideally just provide people with places to go to work more concertedly.

[qt3.14]

I'd like to parrot everything in the OP. I feel this discussion has been had a few times, but never really caused a meaningful change. This place is losing it's spark. If not addressed it'll result in a slow death over the course of years.

from the wider YW space.
I like this idea, and it's excited me every time a form of it has been proposed, but I wanna emphasize Auzzie's second point about diluting our strength if we split up incorrectly. Ashe, at one one point you mentioned being able to come into a shared Yesterweb space and present the accomplishments of one's smaller group—"imagine being able to come to the yesterweb and say 'heres what we accomplished'"; I love that, and it'd definitely bring more of the energy I remember feeling when I first joined, that energy that IRL community groups thrive on. However, we seem to be in the opposite position of those in-person groups: many smaller groups will often organize together around a particular cause on which they agree, creating an ephemeral collective greater than the sum of its parts; right now, we seem to have a (somewhat aimless) larger collective that should be fractured into smaller, more focussed groups. How can we fracture in a way that best allows us to form a unified front when necessary?

This issue is a solved one. We have the centralized 'chat space' that unified everyone. If we fracture into smaller working groups addressing what we actually care about, it doesn't dillute the unified space. It's not a zero-sum game, working groups can add to the community without detracting from them. They'll make the pot larger, not remove the tea from the pot.

>How can we fracture

Specific working groups working on things they're passionate about, addressing things they feel they need addressed, coorperating and assisting other working groups where they need help. A few kanban boards, and groupchat/subforums would do this.

>Grifters and risk

If a specific working group implodes, it isn't a huge loss. They can move to others, back into the larger community, and lean on the larger community for help preventing the implosion. Things being consensus driven instead of organized around single (or small group) that's all powerful makes it a really poor environment to grift in. The target of the grifter has to be everyone, not just the leaders. Then the entire group has to fail to spot the grift. It's unlikely. Plus the values of the community inherently make it resistant to most grifts. We don't make money doing what we're doing, and are actively hostile to commercialization.




Overall I'm happy to lend a hand. This is an issue that needs to be solved with a culture shift or a reorganization. Ideally both.

[youngsterj4y]

Not a whole ton to add that hasn't been said already, but I do wanna call further attention to this point qtπ made:

Specific working groups working on things they're passionate about, addressing things they feel they need addressed, coorperating and assisting other working groups where they need help. A few kanban boards, and groupchat/subforums would do this.

I really like what's being said here because I think splintering in this way needs baby steps to avoid the dilution that amethyst mentioned. Subforums are a great idea, in my opinion, because they keep the focus on the forum space while giving different groups their own space to work and shine. Keeping the social aspect is important in case people need help with their projects, as well.

I'm not the most technically or artistically inclined by any means but I'd also love to help where applicable.

[Sadness]

I think this is a really great topic with lots of great ideas!

Personally I have never for a second envisioned the Yesterweb to be a one-stop-shop for all things that it represents. In fact, my greatest hope was that people would come by, hang for a while and then feel empowered to create something of their own.

I'm under no impression that the Discord server is in any way streamlined or organized. I definitely think its size and continual rapid growth has contributed to this feeling. We are nearly at 2,500 members, which in my humble opinion is a little too much for the limitations of a healthy, thriving server. Instead, it makes things seem cramped, like there isn't enough space for everyone - and as we've seen in the past, adding more channels is not the solution.

What has allowed our server to grow as fast as it has, has been its centralization. I've always been a big proponent of Discord because it's where the people are. The thing is, I didn't quite think that so many people would be interested in such a niche area when I created it. So of course it made sense to make it as easy as possible to find, to the type of people that it was aimed at (I thought like 10 people tops would be interested in participating lol).

Each time the server grows, we experience growing pains. At this point, our rate of growth has surpassed our ability to fully keep eyes on things. We have a hardworking team of moderators and administrators, but in comparison to the amount of total members, it's a really small number.

Still, despite the growth and the bloat, I have been pleasantly surprised by how positive in general the atmosphere of the space tends to lean toward (at least compared to most online social spaces) which I think is a reflection on everyone who continues to try and make it a better space.

But I definitely think it's time to start discussing ways to help spread out the larger community, create different spaces, and make it your own. A single Discord server, a chatroom in general (especially a large one) has so many limitations.

I think Amethyst said it best with,

How can we fracture in a way that best allows us to form a unified front when necessary?

There are a lot of other good sentiments in this thread already, and I'm looking forward to where it leads.

[jshtab]

Refocusing what the Discord should be, a place where people show up, learn more, and start creating themselves, is definitely what should happen. Shifting back will definitely shove a bunch of people the wrong way, but that's just how it is in a crowded room where people can't seem to find the exit. It's better to just make people stop unintended use of a chat than to let it fall into blurry general-ness. Will some people leave for good? Maybe, but they probably weren't going to do anything but idle in the chat anyway.

As for the forming of adjacent spaces, The Yesterweb always has controlled what it promotes. This can extend into splinters and working groups. The focus should be on being a starting point for newcomers, a place with people who can helpfully answer questions, and direct people to what they're looking for. Like a Library for all of the adjacent places. It allows people to diversify into places that can manage them, and also lets the yesterwebweavers keep a watch out for grifts and less-than-friendly circles.

The Yesterweb should just be a place. Not a banner. It's philosophy may inspire others, but it's probably best if things are distinct from YW rather than being "under" YW.

[qt3.14]

The Yesterweb should just be a place. Not a banner. It's philosophy may inspire others, but it's probably best if things are distinct from YW rather than being "under" YW.

I find this bit interesting. The nice thing about having something under the YW banner is it's fairly effective advertising. Why stand up a public server and take on the extra risk if you're not going to have people using it, ya know?

I'm kinda curious as to the reasoning.

[jshtab]

I find this bit interesting. The nice thing about having something under the YW banner is it's fairly effective advertising. Why stand up a public server and take on the extra risk if you're not going to have people using it, ya know?

It's more that YW should promote other communities rather than forming communities officiated directly by yesterweb ops. It's like linking to other domains instead of creating new directories on your own.

[TropicalVoxel]

I find this bit interesting. The nice thing about having something under the YW banner is it's fairly effective advertising. Why stand up a public server and take on the extra risk if you're not going to have people using it, ya know?

It's more that YW should promote other communities rather than forming communities officiated directly by yesterweb ops. It's like linking to other domains instead of creating new directories on your own.

I second this- it would be rad if Yesterweb could boost other servers/communities. That being said, I just had the interesting idea of making a domain with a bunch of links to other communities and etc. (Which I'm sure has been doen before but) Because one thing that makes it really hard to start a community, is getting the roots going and what not. Like a discord server dies if no ones around to chat in it. A directory (Unofficiated by yesterweb, but promoted) might help some communities form, take some ease off a growing community.

[nikkiana]

I think the thing that's challenging with Yesterweb is there are a lot of different points of entry and interaction, and depending on individual preferences and time constraints... an individual may or may not end up interacting with the bulk of the community or its resources.

In case it's helpful.... I'll share my path of interaction.... I joined somewhere around late April 2022 (geez, I almost typed 2002 ) and I initially joined the Discord and hung out in there for awhile basking in the joyous nostalgia of it all, and chatted while I quickly built out the bones of my website on Neocities, and from there joined the Mastodon instance, and the forum as soon as it launched. I browsed around the larger website a bunch and there were definitely things that I was interested in.... like the radio, zine, and podcast.

But... shortly there after my summer job started, and my online habits shifted from being computer-first to being mobile-first and ultimately being offline more than online. That had a big effect on how I interacted online and this is what I found...

First, I didn't really consider figuring out a method to update my website from my phone.... so that became a dormant project immediately.

Second, I don't really like interacting with Discord on my phone on the larger servers I'm a part of especially, so I stopped regularly checking the Discord despite the fact that it's where the bulk of Yesterwebbers hang out.

Third, I found I really really really liked Mastodon. Our instance is pretty small and quiet, but also not so quiet it's lonely on the local feed. BUT the fact that it connected to the larger Fediverse was a HUGE deal to me, and I connected almost immediately with people I already knew from previous parts of my Internet life. I found *my* people through there, and that gave me a reason to use it regularly and interact.

Fourth, I checked the forum occasionally and lurked mostly. Mobile isn't my preferred way to interact with forums, but it's a familiar design pattern that I've sorely missed in the modern Internet so I was inclined to at least try to check in occasionally.

By November, I was back at my computer and the whole Elon Twitter meltdown had begun along with the journalist and academic migration to Mastodon in all its chaos and confusion..... and since getting lost people sorted and on their way is my jam, I've put a lot of my energy into introducing newcomers to the Fediverse as my personal Yesterweb initiative.

But also, because that's where my attention has been laser focused.... I often feel like I'm detached from the larger Yesterweb community because I've found that I don't have enough attention or time in the day to go keep up on Discord unless somebody who's a regular on there thinks to wander over to Mastodon and say something about an ongoing conversation.

I'm very interested in being further involved with things here.... but I feel like there are questions I have about who we are as a community, who we're aiming to serve, and where we want to go. As well as some barriers to entry I'd like to break down both for myself and others.

I'm running out of time before I have to go eat dinner, but some stuff that I'm interested in at the moment would be creating custom stylesheets for the Mastodon instance to give us more of a Yesterweb community cohesive design. I'm also interested in what's going on with the radio/podcast section of the site and if that is something I could get involved with.... I'm interested in the zine, too... but I think I just missed the deadline for that.

Happy to chat on here and I will respond to pings on both Mastodon and Discord as well.

[sword-of-stabbing]

Well, the Yesterweb is starting a new thing. I think personally it would be best if we created a link directory for branches to prevent them from becoming isolated. This forum should be the centcomm for the Yesterweb. Having IM be smaller might allow for smaller groups to focus on specific projects. We should try to stay together and keep people from leaving at the sight of the discord being gone.