The webring is shutting down

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The webring is shutting down

Post by Sadness »

The YW webring has grown into a horrid monstrosity of users, lol. We are at over 800+ users and another almost 200 in a queue from a month's hiatus. Each time a website is submitted, it is up to the moderation team to review the site to ensure it meets our basic guidelines. We also get emails about constantly updating members' entries, whether that's removing them from the ring, changing their URL/alias, or questions about whether someone's application has been approved yet.

It's huge size means that the ring no longer can effectively serve its original purpose: to create a chill network of likeminded folks who run personal and creative websites, who sort of know each other in passing and associate with one another occasionally. Its now excessive size makes it easy for one to become lost among a ring of strangers, where it's kind of just popular to join for the sake of joining, rather than some common purpose. Its size also makes it very difficult if not impossible to ensure the webring stays unbroken (with everyone using the widget, URLs breaking, etc.)

Unfortunately, the webring has become popular and well-known enough that I have seen our webring advertised on reddit and hackernews as a "great webring to join to boost your SEO and build up your backlinks". It made me realize how many people viewed the webring as a kind of billboard they could add their site to, in order to get it more clicks, without otherwise participating or interacting with the members. I remembered "big" webrings feeling this way back in the day, and that's not something I'm interested in replicating. At some point it just loses its meaning.

If you're on the webring, here's what this means: On the widgets, I WAS thinking of disabling the 'next/previous/random' functionality and leaving it up to the website owner to keep it up as a badge or take it down altogether... but ran into some problems doing this with the way the ring was coded, so I settled for changing the error message to a 'friendlier' explanation. So you should probably take the code down if you still have it! (The reason why I don't want to leave the webring members list up as-is and simply close new registrations is because of the maintenance that has to happen behind the scenes: checking periodically for sites that have gone down or changed URLs, people requesting to be removed or renamed, etc.) It feels like I'd be crossing a privacy boundary by abandoning a webring that people have no say in removing themselves from anymore. At the same time, people have been archiving the webring's members list, so in a way it will continue to exist in a read-only state.

As of tonight, I closed the submission page to the webring. If you've applied but you're not on there yet, you're probably one of the 170+ in the queue... I'm sorry about that :pensive: but I'm sure there are other webrings out there who will happily accept your website! I list a bunch of them on my site.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by DaGrandDragonn »

Will you keep the list of who is there?
It’s still a great spot to look around for new personal websites.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by Ray »

That's really sad, but also equally understandable. I guess this means that it's up to us to create and maintain smaller, more manageable webrings.

And also on another hand, without considering the guys trying to take advantage of the webring, it's really neat to see that there's such a growing community of people making personal websites.

Maybe I could suggest - it might be useful for the broken links to redirect to a page with some tools/informations on how to make and maintain webrings? Maybe it could inspire more people to do it! :)
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by Sadness »

DaGrandDragonn wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:27 am Will you keep the list of who is there?
It’s still a great spot to look around for new personal websites.
I touched upon the "why" behind this a little in my original post :sweat_smile: but I will not. The page is already archived though, I think the surf tool is even archived to a pretty decent extent. I was considering linking to an archive on the page or something, but I'm still not sure if that's a good choice privacy-wise. I will probably mention to check archive.org for archives, and leave it up to people to grab those archives themselves.
Ray wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:00 am That's really sad, but also equally understandable. I guess this means that it's up to us to create and maintain smaller, more manageable webrings.

And also on another hand, without considering the guys trying to take advantage of the webring, it's really neat to see that there's such a growing community of people making personal websites.

Maybe I could suggest - it might be useful for the broken links to redirect to a page with some tools/informations on how to make and maintain webrings? Maybe it could inspire more people to do it! :)
Yes this is a great idea! I will also probably repurpose the webring page on the YW site to something like this. Then maybe the next/prev/rand links can just go to the /webring/ page which will have resources for making your own or finding new ones to join.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by Arevakhach »

I love webrings. It is sad to see one die, but I understand and agree (mostly) with your decision here.

In my experience, most webrings and similar projects are not as well managed as they should be. Be it from their barrier to entry being too low, review of new members being too superficial, insufficient time and effort being dedicated to them.

Websites are ever-changing; that attribute makes them more life-like than other forms of art. Lends them to being insightful reflections of ourselves, among other things. But that also means that a project unable or unwilling to keep up with them is likely to falter.

But time is our most valuable resource, and keeping up uses a lot of it. To expect a single person or limited entity to do so for many others is unreasonable in my opinion.

In this thread I spoke about the Lainchan Webring and their decentralized approach. The responsibility is left largely to the individuals. No one leads the ship, and yet, anybody can, if they're willing. That kind of flexibility and autonomy, I believe it is a better model for managing something as alive as websites.

I don't mean to be topical, but with the fast-approaching, quickly evolving beast of AI, I believe communities like this are going to need more resilient forms of... staying strong? Keeping together? Resisting an even more impersonal internet?

Your personal website... You, are something worth sharing. Worth finding. As long as anyone believes that, these projects are worth our time.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by kazewa »

This does kind of fuel the fire in me that's like, I should make my own webrings. (Though I still don't know how.)
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by citrons »

apparently, the mind spiders have finally overtaken me.

uh, can other people edit your posts?
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by Cobra! »

At first I was saddened by the news, but after hearing the reason, I totally understand why now. It’s gotten too big for it’s own good. If people are using it just for SEO reasons, then it has kind of failed it’s mission, hasn’t it?

I agree with everyone else that there should be some sort of archive of links, if only to keep Surf+ functional, because I love using that to explore the ring and chill on the Melonland forum.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by Starfighter »

Cobra! wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:16 am At first I was saddened by the news, but after hearing the reason, I totally understand why now. It’s gotten too big for it’s own good. If people are using it just for SEO reasons, then it has kind of failed it’s mission, hasn’t it?
My feelings/thoughts precisely!
Cobra! wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:16 amSurf+
What's that? :o
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by tako »

Starfighter wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:13 am
Cobra! wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:16 am At first I was saddened by the news, but after hearing the reason, I totally understand why now. It’s gotten too big for it’s own good. If people are using it just for SEO reasons, then it has kind of failed it’s mission, hasn’t it?
My feelings/thoughts precisely!
Cobra! wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:16 amSurf+
What's that? :o
Oh! I made Surf+. It was pretty much this program I wrote integrating the webring, the forum (MelonLand forum since the YW forum didn't exist yet.), and the YW radio, all into one program. The project is kinda dead now, as I haven't worked on it in ages.

Maybe I could bring back Surf+ though, maybe allowing to include multiple webrings or radio streams? Gemini support perhaps? I'm not guaranteeing it, but it could be possible.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by RogerMexico »

I respect the decision.

However, I can’t lie and say it doesn’t make me a little antsy about the potential future for the community if gaining any amount of traction or critical mass is grounds for shutting down some service or other.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by madness »

RogerMexico wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:58 pm However, I can’t lie and say it doesn’t make me a little antsy about the potential future for the community if gaining any amount of traction or critical mass is grounds for shutting down some service or other.
I'll probably be repeating a lot of what has already been said in The Future of the Yesterweb and other places
Spoiler
(I am repeating myself several times and nobody seems to be acknowledging what I am saying)
the problem is not the growth, but the lack of organization to accompany that growth. this is the core issue, the one which explains all the other problems

we had to give up the matrix room/server because of it
we had to give up the discord server for the same reason
we have to give up the web ring for the same reason

the yesterweb was practically a full-time job for me for a couple of months. actually I don't even want to be here anymore but I'm still around to help the other mods
RogerMexico wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:58 pm shutting down some service or other.
it is a service. who is providing that service? why is it that only perhaps 1% of the community is running the services for the other 99%? that means if at least one of us decides to stop working, the organization is severely weakened. this is completely unsustainable, and when we try to reach out to the rest of the community to help us and they begin to recognize that it is actually real work, they go quiet. if I had to guess why, it's because we are here to have fun and not to work, but it requires work to maintain, so therein lies the contradiction

unfortunately that means that if you are not contributing to the effort to maintain the community then you are certainly taking advantage of the effort put in by others. but that's not your fault, the problem is with how the community is structured. it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up with an expectation of community maintenance built into its foundation, or something like that. otherwise we become completely dependent on the work of possibly two or three people who can pull out or sell out at any moment. luckily sadness is not turning this into a brand or a business or using it to advance her career

we were hoping that closing down the discord server would light the fire for new and better forms of community organization, but not much materialized. make your own thing and make it better so we can finally go offline and live our lives without worrying about having to continue to provide our services to others
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by RogerMexico »

madness wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:28 pm I'll probably be repeating a lot of what has already been said in The Future of the Yesterweb and other places
Spoiler
(I am repeating myself several times and nobody seems to be acknowledging what I am saying)
To be clear, that was a genuine feeling presented in good faith, not a backhanded personal attack. I've been in a number of communities over the years that have withered and died through no lack of personal effort whether as an admin, moderator, or user. It doesn't Feel Good™.
madness wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:28 pm the problem is not the growth, but the lack of organization to accompany that growth. this is the core issue, the one which explains all the other problems
I don't disagree with you.
madness wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:28 pm it is a service. who is providing that service? why is it that only perhaps 1% of the community is running the services for the other 99%? that means if at least one of us decides to stop working, the organization is severely weakened. this is completely unsustainable, and when we try to reach out to the rest of the community to help us and they begin to recognize that it is actually real work, they go quiet. if I had to guess why, it's because we are here to have fun and not to work, but it requires work to maintain, so therein lies the contradiction
I agree, it's not tenable to moderate five separate channels with a team of less than ten people. That was destined to grind down anyone responsible for it. I'd also agree that it was probably a well calculated mistake to centralize those channels as a single entity.
madness wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:28 pm we were hoping that closing down the discord server would light the fire for new and better forms of community organization, but not much materialized. make your own thing and make it better so we can finally go offline and live our lives without worrying about having to continue to provide our services to others
Sure, I don't doubt that. It's hard when a large portion of the community are hobbyists or completely new to the idea of grassroots internet communities. I don't think we can expect users who are making their own websites for the first time and struggling with CSS to build anything approaching "new" and "better."

These are all the very specific reasons that massive single-entity conglomerates "won" the invisible social media war. No doubt about that.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by madness »

RogerMexico wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:56 pm To be clear, that was a genuine feeling presented in good faith, not a backhanded personal attack. I've been in a number of communities over the years that have withered and died through no lack of personal effort whether as an admin, moderator, or user. It doesn't Feel Good™.
of course. I didn't take it as a personal attack and I didn't mean to single you out, but I wanted to take the opportunity to repeat for the newcomers the idea that community is a collective effort. many are surprisingly unconscious about this (as has been revealed to us over the course of the yesterweb's life) so I try to make it conscious as part of the reversal of our alienation.

the bigger that the community gets, the more likely that outsiders and newcomers treat us as less-than-human: people come, they get what they want from us, and they leave. I strongly believe that this can be countered through organization, but it is mostly hobbyists - so that much effort isn't worth it for the majority of hobbyists. that means that there are limits, unless the character of the community transforms into something that isn't centered around a hobby.

I recognize online community building as a social necessity and that it why I (was) committed to it, but the amount of people who do is apparently much smaller than the amount of hobbyists. making a web ring founded on a serious effort to build community would be a pretty interesting experiment, but I'm unsure if there is enough interest for something like that at this time, if ever.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by Cobra! »

tako wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:48 pm Oh! I made Surf+. It was pretty much this program I wrote integrating the webring, the forum (MelonLand forum since the YW forum didn't exist yet.), and the YW radio, all into one program. The project is kinda dead now, as I haven't worked on it in ages.

Maybe I could bring back Surf+ though, maybe allowing to include multiple webrings or radio streams? Gemini support perhaps? I'm not guaranteeing it, but it could be possible.
That would be great! I love using the tool! :D
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by Grafo »

I agree with the closing down of the Webring. As Sadness pointed out maintaining it it’s just not sustainable (and the way people seems to be using it, as a promotion platform, less than ideal).
Also, I think we all should rethink what we want out of all this and try to figure it out how to pull it off.
What Madness pointed out I think is the main reason this is happening: people are too used to services: they want to arrive and get just something out of it, it’s not a two way relationship, it’s not participating.
Maybe we should keep things open for everyone to see (so whoever get inspired by it can do their own spin) but keep a more active group smaller and with more focused aims that we know most people on it are on it to achieve.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by Starfighter »

madness wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:28 pmit needs to be rebuilt from the ground up with an expectation of community maintenance built into its foundation, or something like that.
If I were to guess, this is probably the key.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by Bliss-net »

I was there on the webring from the start, and I agree it did feel like we kind of started to loose focus once the member numbers really started to climb. Things were much simpler when we were only under 100 and easier to manage, I had no idea people were joining the webring for "clout", I feel like that sentiment is completely against what the yesterweb is about.

I feel like the webring slowly started to be treated like a social media platform, or at least be seen with a social media mindset in terms of people joining for clout and to be noticed rather than to be a part of a community trying to keep the wonders and creativity of the web alive.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by lulu »

Wow wow wow, I'm just catching up on all the changes around here. I caught the Error: The Yesterweb webring is closed. Thank you for being a part of it message while browsing around, and that pulled me here.. so hey, the old code is a pretty effective billboard. I'll save the bulk of my thoughts for later, just wanted to pop in here and say I 100000% support this decision, I had no idea the ring (or the sever) got as big as it did.

Speaking of billboards..
Sadness wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:51 am Unfortunately, the webring has become popular and well-known enough that I have seen our webring advertised on reddit and hackernews as a "great webring to join to boost your SEO and build up your backlinks".
EWWWW.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by Sinclair-Speccy »

You might want to remove https://github.com/maxboeck/webring from the webring section of the site as that no longer works as of 2022. It seems that dependencies need to be updated therefore, it fails to deploy to netlify. https://github.com/maxboeck/webring/issues/45

Have tried to see this myself and can confirm I get errors and failure to deploy
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by Eyre »

I love seeing this community continue to act on its original principles despite the attention it has attracted. Massive respect for shutting down the webring.

I'll admit my own decision was simply to not join to avoid being associated with anything where I wasn't personally acquainted with all individuals involved.

What is the current thinking regarding the continuation of the list of manifestos? It's not grown like the webring has, and it seems to continue to serve its function, at least from my lurker perspective. If the duty of maintaining it is proving a challenge or unsustainable at any point, I'd be very keen to be involved in its maintenance or replacement.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by emptycreep »

RogerMexico wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:58 pm I respect the decision.

However, I can’t lie and say it doesn’t make me a little antsy about the potential future for the community if gaining any amount of traction or critical mass is grounds for shutting down some service or other.
Right? I'm certainly not trying to be rude, but wasn't that the point? To expand awareness about the community of personal website owners who definitely still exist? I see people on mainstream social media that have no idea places like still exist(ed). I know it is a lot of work--is there no option for other people to be added on as contributors to lighten the load? I do respect the decision, ultimately, as I completely understand how difficult projects like this can be. At the very least, the project could be forked.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by emptycreep »

lulu wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:13 am Wow wow wow, I'm just catching up on all the changes around here. I caught the Error: The Yesterweb webring is closed. Thank you for being a part of it message while browsing around, and that pulled me here.. so hey, the old code is a pretty effective billboard. I'll save the bulk of my thoughts for later, just wanted to pop in here and say I 100000% support this decision, I had no idea the ring (or the sever) got as big as it did.

Speaking of billboards..
Sadness wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:51 am Unfortunately, the webring has become popular and well-known enough that I have seen our webring advertised on reddit and hackernews as a "great webring to join to boost your SEO and build up your backlinks".
EWWWW.
I'm sorry but this is terribly confusing to me. While it may be true that people were using it in this sense, the webring is still niche enough (800 members is nothing, no offense), that the spirit of the webring was still alive and well. How else do small websites share their creations with others? This was such a great option that did have the potential to boost SEO, but was ultimately just a great tool for small websites to get word out about their site. What is the purpose of a webring if not to circulate your content among other like-minded thinkers? Furthermore, couldn't the webring niche down an accept users under umbrella topics to keep that small-web feel? I do understand it is simply too much work, and that expanding it even further could just make a mess of it all.

So if someone did want to create a new webring (or multiple), can they advertise them here so users can migrate? The anti-personal-ad nature of this forum makes it seem like that is not allowed. Feels rather damaging to the community...

Again, not trying to be rude or mean at all.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by emptycreep »

madness wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:28 pm
RogerMexico wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:58 pm However, I can’t lie and say it doesn’t make me a little antsy about the potential future for the community if gaining any amount of traction or critical mass is grounds for shutting down some service or other.
I'll probably be repeating a lot of what has already been said in The Future of the Yesterweb and other places
Spoiler
(I am repeating myself several times and nobody seems to be acknowledging what I am saying)
the problem is not the growth, but the lack of organization to accompany that growth. this is the core issue, the one which explains all the other problems

we had to give up the matrix room/server because of it
we had to give up the discord server for the same reason
we have to give up the web ring for the same reason

the yesterweb was practically a full-time job for me for a couple of months. actually I don't even want to be here anymore but I'm still around to help the other mods
RogerMexico wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:58 pm shutting down some service or other.
it is a service. who is providing that service? why is it that only perhaps 1% of the community is running the services for the other 99%? that means if at least one of us decides to stop working, the organization is severely weakened. this is completely unsustainable, and when we try to reach out to the rest of the community to help us and they begin to recognize that it is actually real work, they go quiet. if I had to guess why, it's because we are here to have fun and not to work, but it requires work to maintain, so therein lies the contradiction

unfortunately that means that if you are not contributing to the effort to maintain the community then you are certainly taking advantage of the effort put in by others. but that's not your fault, the problem is with how the community is structured. it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up with an expectation of community maintenance built into its foundation, or something like that. otherwise we become completely dependent on the work of possibly two or three people who can pull out or sell out at any moment. luckily sadness is not turning this into a brand or a business or using it to advance her career

we were hoping that closing down the discord server would light the fire for new and better forms of community organization, but not much materialized. make your own thing and make it better so we can finally go offline and live our lives without worrying about having to continue to provide our services to others
I absolutely agree with everything that you said here and it is something that I would love to help with in any way that I can. I do know how to code and I have a website with a Wiki software that anyone can join in and use. There are also forums and a chatroom. I have dedicated a large portion of my life to learning how to do these things while remaining relatively undiscovered (and I like it that way).

I would love to help this community in any way that I can, even if it means dishing out some money to put those systems into place that need to be there. But I cannot do it alone, and I have never posted a message like this anywhere because I know that it can come across as annoying self-promotion. I think that is another problem that needs to be addressed, because people need to feel welcomed and encouraged to help, contribute, and share without feeling like they would be stepping on toes or being a nuisance.

If anybody would like to brainstorm and work together, I'm completely open.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by sixeyes »

emptycreep wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:04 pm So if someone did want to create a new webring (or multiple), can they advertise them here so users can migrate? The anti-personal-ad nature of this forum makes it seem like that is not allowed. Feels rather damaging to the community...
To this i'll make what i think is a very stereotypical "forum" reply: there's a thread for that 😅 namely Share your webrings and webring ideas!

(I think youre a little harsh in the reading of that rule. It would be weird if we could not discuss other websites. But i wouldn't just throw around links without trying to make any discussion. (this is of course my reading, fwiw, hehe))
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by emptycreep »

sixeyes wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:28 pm
emptycreep wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:04 pm So if someone did want to create a new webring (or multiple), can they advertise them here so users can migrate? The anti-personal-ad nature of this forum makes it seem like that is not allowed. Feels rather damaging to the community...
To this i'll make what i think is a very stereotypical "forum" reply: there's a thread for that 😅 namely Share your webrings and webring ideas!

(I think youre a little harsh in the reading of that rule. It would be weird if we could not discuss other websites. But i wouldn't just throw around links without trying to make any discussion. (this is of course my reading, fwiw, hehe))
I do appreciate your response and understand what you are saying. That is why I said that I am not being rude or mean, just talking about how I feel. Again, I understand what you are saying, but in some ways I disagree. If a person were to ask a question in day-to-day life, you wouldn't tell them to go talk about it /over there/, which is what ends up happening on web forums. I think it ultimately hurts the community, filled with people who may be otherwise willing to help and contribute. When the expectations are set so high (not that asking people to post in the right place is too much to ask), they fear doing things wrong, and it becomes easier to just not get involved in the first place.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by vincent »

To address some of your points in your posts:
emptycreep wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:54 pm Right? I'm certainly not trying to be rude, but wasn't that the point? To expand awareness about the community of personal website owners who definitely still exist? I see people on mainstream social media that have no idea places like still exist(ed). I know it is a lot of work--is there no option for other people to be added on as contributors to lighten the load? I do respect the decision, ultimately, as I completely understand how difficult projects like this can be. At the very least, the project could be forked.
We'd love for people to be able to contribute more, but unfortunately, that keeps falling through and the burden is often placed on staff to maintain things. People love the idea of contributing until they see the amount of work that goes into it, and then their contributions get more and more sparse until it stops happening. The webring was a tremendous amount of work for staff.
emptycreep wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:04 pm I'm sorry but this is terribly confusing to me. While it may be true that people were using it in this sense, the webring is still niche enough (800 members is nothing, no offense), that the spirit of the webring was still alive and well. How else do small websites share their creations with others? This was such a great option that did have the potential to boost SEO, but was ultimately just a great tool for small websites to get word out about their site. What is the purpose of a webring if not to circulate your content among other like-minded thinkers? Furthermore, couldn't the webring niche down an accept users under umbrella topics to keep that small-web feel? I do understand it is simply too much work, and that expanding it even further could just make a mess of it all.

So if someone did want to create a new webring (or multiple), can they advertise them here so users can migrate? The anti-personal-ad nature of this forum makes it seem like that is not allowed. Feels rather damaging to the community...

Again, not trying to be rude or mean at all.
The purpose of the webring was not to be a business platform or a way for people to make money, which is how people were using it. One of the main reasons we shut down the Discord as well was because we saw that people have been turning to the Yesterweb/Indie Web/Web Revival/et cetera. movement in order to make a quick buck.

We want people to find each other, we do not want to be a platform for advertisement and people to make money particularly off the backs of our labor. We are doing this for free out of a strong belief in the morals of this community. It feels deeply unfair and frankly gross that people were trying to use our fun little project used to help find like-minded people in order to make money.
emptycreep wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:14 pm I absolutely agree with everything that you said here and it is something that I would love to help with in any way that I can. I do know how to code and I have a website with a Wiki software that anyone can join in and use. There are also forums and a chatroom. I have dedicated a large portion of my life to learning how to do these things while remaining relatively undiscovered (and I like it that way).

I would love to help this community in any way that I can, even if it means dishing out some money to put those systems into place that need to be there. But I cannot do it alone, and I have never posted a message like this anywhere because I know that it can come across as annoying self-promotion. I think that is another problem that needs to be addressed, because people need to feel welcomed and encouraged to help, contribute, and share without feeling like they would be stepping on toes or being a nuisance.

If anybody would like to brainstorm and work together, I'm completely open.
The Gazebo subforum would be a good way to find people interested in doing projects and helping out. At the moment, there aren't many things that staff needs help on as much as we really want people to start taking the initiative to do their own projects. As long as it is within the bounds of our ideals, we'll probably give it the seal of approval.

So, instead of waiting to be asked, we would like people to really go out there and start making solutions. I can't speak for all of staff, but a lot of us are remarkably busy with life right now and don't have the time nor energy to coordinate things, so having a more community led style of projects would benefit everyone in the long run.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by sixeyes »

emptycreep wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:45 pm I do appreciate your response and understand what you are saying. That is why I said that I am not being rude or mean, just talking about how I feel. Again, I understand what you are saying, but in some ways I disagree. If a person were to ask a question in day-to-day life, you wouldn't tell them to go talk about it /over there/, which is what ends up happening on web forums. I think it ultimately hurts the community, filled with people who may be otherwise willing to help and contribute. When the expectations are set so high (not that asking people to post in the right place is too much to ask), they fear doing things wrong, and it becomes easier to just not get involved in the first place.
Ah, whoops, i didn't mean to insinuate that this discussion was in the wrong place! My point was that posting about a webring should be fine, since it's already happening. You should make one if you have something in mind..! ((I absolutely want to eventually run one too, try to integrate a lieu search engine for it maybe. But thats the techical side, there's also a social side to it i think, so i'm stuck trying to figure out some kind of theme i would actually want to engage with...))

Not entirely sure what you are disagreeing with, sorry 😓
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by emptycreep »

sixeyes wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:18 pm Not entirely sure what you are disagreeing with, sorry 😓
I apologize if I made it sound like I was disagreeing with something. The limitations of communication are such that having nuanced discussions (such as this one) can become very difficult.

I will think about it, and if I come up with something, I will post it in there. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by madness »

I think a handful of us - not just here but from who I've met in the past two years of doing this - are over-emphasizing the importance of the personal website.

The movement driving their creation is a justifiable reaction to the objectifying nature of all of the social media we have been coerced to participate in.

But they are only a short-term solution. In the end, a highly-decorated well-lit spacious cage is still a cage. Some of you are fine with this accommodation. I am not. That is the point of division where we cease to be like-minded.

This is being extremely generous too since there are other glaring problems, such as the space being dominated by rich westerners and their children and their culture or the culture that they have adopted through consumption. People who are generally too comfortable in their material circumstances to make a genuine effort that extends beyond their self-interest.

I can no longer enable this, or be an accomplice to it, or materially support it, or put labor into it. I know for certain that I am not alone in feeling this way, but here I am only speaking to myself: After all this time I have become psychologically antagonistic to it, and I think most healthy individuals will eventually come to the same conclusion given enough exposure to the reality. We are not just not-like-minded; by now we are worlds apart.

Start your own projects and webrings even. We've been encouraging it forever and particularly this year. That was the purpose of finally writing the manifesto on the website - hopefully it helps to give some guidance to anyone taking leadership starting their own projects. Use this forum to find people to start projects with. Discuss your ideas and offer your criticisms.

The staff just isn't going to do it for you. I mean technically we are still on strike, I guess. Half the staff is gone, doing their own thing, no idea what is even going on lmao. Sadness is too nice and indecisive, so I am here acting as the undertaker.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

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madness wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:07 am But they are only a short-term solution. In the end, a highly-decorated well-lit spacious cage is still a cage. Some of you are fine with this accommodation. I am not. That is the point of division where we cease to be like-minded.
This is intensely dramatic for a futile goal. The sort of massive infrastructure change you’re alluding to is impossible through grassroots in the span of two years.

In what world does a niche internet community reinvent internet ephemera whole cloth from first principles but this time as a utopian radical cultural plurality co-op? Your dreams and ideals are wildly out of step with what’s possible. That’s fine, but we can’t make that everyone else’s problem.
madness wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:07 am The staff just isn't going to do it for you. I mean technically we are still on strike, I guess. Half the staff is gone, doing their own thing, no idea what is even going on lmao. Sadness is too nice and indecisive, so I am here acting as the undertaker.
You’re a moderator of a niche internet community who feels disillusioned. Tale as old as time, song as old as rhyme. Take a real break, read whatever radical revolutionary literature you prefer, and either come back renewed or don’t.
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by madness »

RogerMexico wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 1:55 pm the sort of massive infrastructure change you’re alluding to
hmm no, none of that ever entered my mind, that's a false allusion. you have injected your ideas into my words, which is fine, but it wasn't my goal. those aren't my dreams or ideals either. you may be reading into my words something that is not there

of course I am going to link the manifesto again so that everyone knows where we are at in this particular place in time. we took care to avoid ideals and even principles for a reason
RogerMexico wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 1:55 pm You’re a moderator of a niche internet community who feels disillusioned. Tale as old as time, song as old as rhyme. Take a real break, read whatever radical revolutionary literature you prefer, and either come back renewed or don’t.
oof, I am hurt, but it's okay, I understand that you are new here. teckhnuckhly I am more of an organizer than a moderator. I hardly moderate at all. most of my work is resolving contradictions that develop in the path of the yesterweb's development, essentially decision-making. I educate the staff and occasionally the members when I have time. sometimes we even have internal reading/book clubs

as the (small amount of) organizers our principal task is concentrating the ideas of our members and turning them into actionable goals to help them solve their problems, usually internet-related but not always. it works pretty well, but the point is that we aren't proceeding from our ideals, as everything is derived from our experiences with our members

but uh I'm still confused by your last sentence so I am going to assume there was a misunderstanding
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by RogerMexico »

madness wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:50 pm
RogerMexico wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 1:55 pm the sort of massive infrastructure change you’re alluding to
hmm no, none of that ever entered my mind, that's a false allusion. you have injected your ideas into my words, which is fine, but it wasn't my goal. those aren't my dreams or ideals either. you may be reading into my words something that is not there
Then what are you talking about in your paragraph about gilded cages? You've also written here about your specific ideological grounding being intrinsically at odds with the general member. What else am I to take away from this? What are you looking to get across at this juncture of the conversation? I may be wrong in the specifics but I can't see another way to understand where you, specifically, are coming from.
madness wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:50 pm of course I am going to link the manifesto again so that everyone knows where we are at in this particular place in time. we took care to avoid ideals and even principles for a reason
Yes, the organization has, but it's clearly important to you individually or you wouldn't consistently, if vaguely, bring it up.
madness wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:50 pm
RogerMexico wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 1:55 pm You’re a moderator of a niche internet community who feels disillusioned. Tale as old as time, song as old as rhyme. Take a real break, read whatever radical revolutionary literature you prefer, and either come back renewed or don’t.
oof, I am hurt, but it's okay, I understand that you are new here. teckhnuckhly I am more of an organizer than a moderator. I hardly moderate at all. most of my work is resolving contradictions that develop in the path of the yesterweb's development, essentially decision-making. I educate the staff and occasionally the members when I have time. sometimes we even have internal reading/book clubs
That was not intended to be derisive and I apologize. This was specifically an attempt to empathize with your feeling of "acting as the undertaker." I absolutely could have conveyed that better.
madness wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:50 pm but uh I'm still confused by your last sentence so I am going to assume there was a misunderstanding
You've written multiple times in different threads, and multiple times in this one, that you're burnt out, disillusioned with the project, and you don't want to be around. What am I to take away from this other than what you've presented? What am I misunderstanding?
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Re: The webring is shutting down

Post by madness »

RogerMexico wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:30 pm
madness wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:50 pm
RogerMexico wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 1:55 pm You’re a moderator of a niche internet community who feels disillusioned. Tale as old as time, song as old as rhyme. Take a real break, read whatever radical revolutionary literature you prefer, and either come back renewed or don’t.*
oof, I am hurt, but it's okay, I understand that you are new here. teckhnuckhly I am more of an organizer than a moderator. I hardly moderate at all. most of my work is resolving contradictions that develop in the path of the yesterweb's development, essentially decision-making. I educate the staff and occasionally the members when I have time. sometimes we even have internal reading/book clubs
That was not intended to be derisive and I apologize. This was specifically an attempt to empathize with your feeling of "acting as the undertaker." I absolutely could have conveyed that better.
madness wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:50 pm but uh I'm still confused by your last sentence* so I am going to assume there was a misunderstanding
You've written multiple times in different threads, and multiple times in this one, that you're burnt out, disillusioned with the project, and you don't want to be around. What am I to take away from this other than what you've presented? What am I misunderstanding?
I hope your questions have been answered in other forum discussions that we've had after this conversation. I apologize for being unclear here; I really needed to work out my thoughts through writing them out every day over the last three weeks. If it's still unclear, our final update should reveal our project well enough to understand what's going on.
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