The forum is shutting down

Talk about Yesterweb-specific projects and initiatives and the forum itself.
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madness
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by madness »

OiStepanka wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:57 am On xat, back when I was a teenager. We had a group chat among folks ranging from ages 12-25 and we.. damn near had a paradise online. An escape from the world that adults had .. honestly run into the ground and the internet was growing up around us subsequently. It was a new world. We interacted well with each other. We were very formal in our greetings and exchanges. We were very interested in what everyone was doing in that chat at that moment. I had a glimpse of what it could become..
I had a similar experience. It was mostly with a handful of people and not really a community, but the conversations and connections we had were more fulfilling and ran deeper than what's considered normal now. I believe we were all swept away by forces outside of our control and in our confusion we didn't notice what was being taken from us, or even the necessity of defending it. So now we have to start over by re-learning and re-creating it and hope that those who never experienced it will see the value in it.
ch1rx30 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 4:45 am Trying right now. Are the community guidelines and rules from the discord archived somewhere?
The community guidelines and rules were absorbed/abstracted/concentrated into the manifesto and etiquette. We don't think copy-pasting rules and such will work. You have to do the best of your ability to fit your understanding into the space you are trying to create, because it will be unique to that space.

(but there are the forum rules and guidelines if you want to take a look)
ch1rx30 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 4:45 am Also looking for a reader-friendly breakdown of subculture vs counter-culture to share.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by Ray »

madness wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 9:04 am I am what is known in Latin America as a digital guerrilla. I show up in promising social spaces and attempt to perform a social transformation. Once I have done all I can, I move on and do it again, sometimes online, sometimes offline. I have been popping in and out of existence like this for six (6) years. I do this alone, but I am also not the only one doing this - I learned it partly by studying the methods of others.
This is the first time where it grew into an organizational effort.
So were the other times "failures" in a way, or did they have their purpose? I imagine that if you stuck with it for 6 years, you must've felt like it was worthwhile and useful. I'd love to hear a bit about those past experiences, if you feel like sharing and it doesn't go too much off topic.
The Yesterweb was created by Sadness as an aimless hobby server and I joined because I wanted to see if I could help Sadness stop being sad. Sadness did in fact stop being sad.
That's really sweet! Like Auzzie said, "at the end of the day we found each other in the vastness of the web".
I don't think an hobby server is necessarily "aimless", but I don't think that's the point you were trying to make, either.
This is not what is normally expected - in an average social movement, those who are sympathetic are usually in the majority, but this ones' particular hang-up on nostalgia and period-revival shifts the majority of the movement into being unable to see or want anything genuinely progressive.
I will reflect on this and bring it up with others, and see if maybe we can make it more explicit in the future. But if you have ideas on how to make it so, I would love to hear them. The website is not going down, so the message will stay up.
madness wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:35 pm Actually I completely forgot there even was an About page. I believe this is because I have been too busy and too burnt out which made it difficult to have the necessary concentration. After all, you are not supposed to operate heavy machinery when you are tired, because it increases the risk of making serious mistakes.
madness wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:19 pm So if we were able to add something about sub-culture and counter-culture, we would necessarily have to explain it in a way that everyone could understand, adding more points of failure to the message.
I absolutely symphatize with the being burnt out, and see how such a thing happened. Still, I'm always of the opinion that it's better to do something imperfectly than not doing it at all.
The way I felt like is that -- you set up an ice cream van somewhere years ago. People started loving it and asking for icecream all day long. Somewhere on the road, you realized that what you really wanted to do with this job is bring joy to people, and ice cream had nothing to do with it. So you wanted to use that van for something else. But, there's so many people asking for ice cream, and so little staff! And so you kept being the ice cream people, instead of putting out a big sign saying "out of ice cream, we're doing this thing now!". Why? Was it fear to disappoint the vast majority of people who didn't care, or were you just so tired by your ice cream job that you couldn't stop and change things?

I feel like "the Yesterweb was doomed to fail" simply because there was a big difference between what the organizers wanted to get out of it, and what the community thought they could get out of it. I don't understand why there hadn't been concrete efforts at spelling out things, like it's happening now. You say you went on for the 10% who cared: why not round that 10% up and continue on with them only, instead of burning out moderating the uncaring 90%? What were you hoping to get out of them? :o (all of these are genuine questions, not rethorical!)

I think there was the possibility to communicate something like "Hey, us organizers realized that the core of what we like about websites and our community is not going back to an older web, but building a better one, following the principles in the Manifesto and Etiquette. We don't believe going back to the past is the way forward.
We're changing what the Yesterweb is about. You're free to reorganize hobbyist spaces yourself; for the ones who want to build something completely new with us, join us at this new X space. We're sorry to disappoint a part of our community, but this does not represent our values anymore, and we are people and not mere providers of a service."

Of course I understand that it wouldn't be as easy as that, you might've gotten a lot of hate, and some confused users. But since you ended up having to close the YW in the end, getting the same result... Did anyone think about doing something like that, and if so, why was the idea rejected?
I hope I didn't miss anything important. I love that you are taking initiative to start a project, and I wish you best of luck with it!
Thank you! <3
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by NULLinvis »

madness wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:20 am I bring up the difference between sub-culture and counter-culture because it's good to think about the prefixes of "sub-" and "counter-". A sub-culture will have you buying old web chokers and belly button studs at Hot Topic. It seeks acceptance and shares space within the old society. A counter-culture will actually make Facebook, Twitter, etc. a decent place to be. It fights to transform the old society and eventually replace it.

So you know, it's important to us that this doesn't devolve into being simply an aesthetic or hobby or slacktivism. If that's what people want then they can build it themselves and the groundwork was already laid out for them. I think we should push for more fundamental transformation.
This is what drew me to this forum, however I must admit I didn't post much because of these very reasons - the sub culture and its aesthetics are not my thing, however the idea of rejecting the state of the modern web and building new communities online, removed from the corporate web, very appealing in terms of an act of counter culture. It is so easy as you mentioned to slip into a state of nostalgic bliss, with garish gifs and neocities styles, and speak in a language of webrings and webmasters. However to me this is regressive, and a more fundamental transformation is needed as you said. Maybe in my mind i too was lured to this site by nostalgia, but one moreso induced by the works of k-punk and the CCRU as opposed to the aesthetics of the old web.

It would be nice to foster communities and spaces that are more actively focused on the theory side of things about network culture, the internet and how it interacts with the self and society, as well as focused on the act of creation of works like manifestos, zines, digital experiences etc, but i can't seem to find any apart from the rhizome discord :( Thank you, and good luck with whatever you pursue next!
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by BeeMilk »

This forum opened up a whole new world for me. Sad to see it go, but its been good times :) Glad to have been a small part of it.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

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Ray wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 12:35 pm Did anyone think about doing something like that, and if so, why was the idea rejected?
I think this is hilarious because a lot of what you said actually did happen, you just don't know about it because it hasn't been documented anywhere. We once had someone volunteer to be our historian, if I remember correctly. The sad thing is they decided to leave because of safety concerns: we were getting our server's data leaked on 4chan at the time with a particular focus on attacking our trans members. Many people left or went silent.

So let me expand your analogy:

We sold ice cream out of an ice cream truck.

We realized ice cream was making us sick and unhealthy so we introduced a healthier option: salad. We told everyone "we're going to keep selling ice cream but what we really want to do is make salad, so please have some salad."

Barely anyone wanted the salad and everyone was still eating the ice cream, so we worked for a while to explain to people why eating ice cream was a bad idea. A few people listened but the majority continued to eat ice cream.

We were getting sick and tired of selling ice cream so we told everyone "somebody else has to sell ice cream because we no longer want to do it." Nobody stepped up. A few people even tried to convince us to stop making salad and only sell ice cream.

We closed the ice cream section and told everyone that if they wanted ice cream they would have to get it somewhere else, from now on we are only selling salad, come hang out with us and make salad. We were told "fuck you, I want ice cream!" Other ice cream trucks moved in to take our customers and we don't care because we were done selling that garbage.

The salad bar was still open, but we were still selling it from inside of an ice cream truck. People kept showing up expecting ice cream and even bringing their own ice cream and sharing it instead of making salad.

We decided to close the ice cream truck because it's misleading, and are asking people to start their own salad bars and truly reflect on why they like ice cream so much.

So I hope that answers most of your questions.
Ray wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 12:35 pm You say you went on for the 10% who cared: why not round that 10% up and continue on with them only, instead of burning out moderating the uncaring 90%?
Isn't that what's happening now? :P
I'm sure a lot of us would love to continue on if we weren't burnt out, but I probably need a couple of months or years to rest. That's why we've been calling on you to continue on without us, so that it all doesn't go to waste, and maybe some day in the future we can join you again.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

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madness wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:16 pm So I hope that answers most of your questions.
I can safely say that my curiosity has been satisfied now :)
Thank you for your candour, transparency, and patience. I hope to meet you again somewhen in the future, and share some salad together. Goodbye, and take care! <3
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by Floris Rietman »

But what can i use- now that the forum is shutting down to talk to the yesterweb, Mastadon?
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Re: The forum is shutting down

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I want to shed some light on my experiences with the Yesterweb as well. I found the Yesterweb when it was in its infancy. The Yesterweb drew me in because it reminded me of my childhood. I spent my childhood making websites and to see other people doing that and the seemed to look back it with such reverence and adoration showed me that I had 'found my people'.

I think a lot of people came to the Yesterweb for similar reasons if they were old enough to be nostalgic, but once I realized that the YW actually had a lot of younger folks that didn't experience the 90s and 00s themselves I realized there was something else going on.

They were looking for a way out of the modern web- the walled gardens of FB, IG, Twitter and the obvious choice was usually to create your own spaces- like we used to do on the Old Web!

Well that made sense to me, so what we would focus on wasn't just hanging out and talking about the Good ol' days, we would give newbies the tools to create their own spaces- and by doing so, we would be carving out a space on the web to counter the modern web.

I then started talking to Madness and Sadness- daily. We three had realized that there was a root cause to what ails the modern web- and it was Capitalism- it was the commercial nature of it all. As Marxists we tried to find ways to help the community realize that as well. It wasn't that we wanted to hide that fact- we often didn't, but we didn't want to just drop thick Marxist theory in everybody's lap- because that does nobody any good. We wanted people to go through the following process:

1. Find the Yesterweb via discontent with the current state of the Web
2. Learn WHY the web is the way it is now (by using the nostalgic lens to see the historical alternative)
3. Collectivize with all of us in raising our consciousness of the oppressive nature of the current Web (capitalist exploitation via data harvesting, commercialism, etc)
4. Develop real solutions to further raise consciousness of people outside of the Yesterweb

All of this took massive amounts of energy and time and without more help- it fizzled out. We all became so burnt out with trying to help people understand that we gave up in a lot of ways.

Marxism is a scientific method that we can use. First we need to understand the material conditions which have lead to this moment in time, but so many people that came to the Yesterweb didn't have this mode of thinking in mind and it was after this deep reflection that we realized a few core issues.

1. Nostalgia was too powerful - Nostalgia is by its nature reactionary. Wanting to go to a time in the past is usually not a progressive act to take- what we wanted to do was have people use nostalgia (actually historical materialism) to understand the current state of the web and to help us create a better web TO REPLACE the current web. This didn't happen.

2. Class Conflicts - We attracted people that were not and probably are not revolutionary in nature. Many of the folks we attracted grew up with technology in their homes, which means they probably grew up in a relatively wealthy family. In order to even begin to see the contradictions in the current web they would have to resolve the conflicts in their own class identity- something which is extremely difficult. (for transparency, I grew up wealthy and had a PC in my home in the 1990s- which was quite the rarity for the bulk of humanity)

3. Techies and Artists - One of the coolest things of the YW was how we attracted artists AND techies. This cross-pollination was our greatest strength- but without the ability to use a common language- we could not coalesce the two groups.

4. Too Big, Too Fast - We grew too fast, in too many directions and were not able to coalesce around anything other than 'lets make personal websites'. At the time I too called for people to make their own websites, because to me it was the first step towards leaving the modern web... but there was a contradiction to unravel...

In Marxism we are to find the contradictions at every step, in every interaction, to fully understand a situation. In calling for people to create personal websites, we actually isolated ourselves from each other rather than coming together. We created personal spaces rather than creating one revolutionary space.

There were more issues, but these are the ones I remember most clearly.

In the end I was extremely grateful to find others like me- to find others that want a better web and to find people that I consider to be my closest and best friends.

We will continue fighting the good fight- learning from all of our mistakes and our successes.

Feel free to ask me questions as well. I love this community and the friends we've made. I wish I could have been who I am now back when I joined.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by madness »

AuzzieJay wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 5:48 pm we didn't want to just drop thick Marxist theory in everybody's lap
we should still work on and release a technical summary anyway. it might be beneficial for interested observers, and we wouldn't want to let that knowledge go to waste
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by purelyconstructive »

madness wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:17 am Hi. I saw you had an account here and I was wondering if you would show up to the party. :P After all of our messages back and forth it should be no surprise to you that if I was going to be working on anything in this life, it would have to be radically constructive.
Hi! I believe the term is "fashionably late". Haha! Just kidding....Seriously though, it doesn't surprise me at all my friend.
madness wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:17 am You may have witnessed a glimpse of the possibility of real change within that server. We worked hard to create those conditions, similar to what has manifested in this forum topic, even if it only existed for brief moments in time.
I could definitely see the potential for it and was lucky enough to be a part of some of those moments while I was there. I distinctly remember making comments like this on several occasions to everyone in the chat: "Thank you all for your input! I'm excited about our convos. They give me a lot of hope for the future."

The synergy was phenomenal sometimes. The diversity of thoughtful opinions (including those who may have originally just been there for the "nostalgia") were important in creating a more comprehensive view on different subjects, and the care in moderating the space helped dialogue to flourish.

It can be tricky striking a balance between "holding space" for others with the hope that they will organize into constructive projects of their own volition, and becoming disappointed when it seems like it is diverging from your personal aims. Similarly, I can also understand how many might have been confused about how to effectively mesh their personal interests to the overall direction with so much activity going on at the same time.
madness wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:17 am Maybe we didn't see it the same way, but once I saw it, I was confident that we had created something new, a new web, even for a couple of seconds. And it was so fulfilling and satisfying that suddenly all of that nostalgia and old web stuff felt lifeless and depressing in comparison. When we got a taste of the new world it's all we could ever justify working toward.

Sadly it was probably too ambitious for the handful of us who wanted it, but I hope in the future there will be enough people to bring it into a stable form. I'd like to believe that you will be a part of it.
I'm grateful that you all put in the effort that you did. I am certain that many who found each other through the Yesterweb are now in the process of building that "new web", probably many more than what is readily apparent.

I know I have gotten glimpses of this same "web", both within group settings like the Yesterweb and in one-on-one correspondence from places like Neocities. Each time, my eyes fill with tears because I know that it is Pure Love being expressed through humankind. To quote one of those letters with another dear friend of mine:

"Humans are nodes in a network and data is shifted around through dialogue and by willingly sharing information. It is mutual, reciprocal, through and through. For this, I thank you. We help each other to grow. Isn't that wonderful? To both simultaneously gain something within a transaction instead of trying to endlessly take from one another."

I will do whatever I can to help bring it forth.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

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purelyconstructive wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 9:39 pm I know I have gotten glimpses of this same "web", both within group settings like the Yesterweb and in one-on-one correspondence from places like Neocities. Each time, my eyes fill with tears because I know that it is Pure Love being expressed through humankind. To quote one of those letters with another dear friend of mine:

"Humans are nodes in a network and data is shifted around through dialogue and by willingly sharing information. It is mutual, reciprocal, through and through. For this, I thank you. We help each other to grow. Isn't that wonderful? To both simultaneously gain something within a transaction instead of trying to endlessly take from one another."

I will do whatever I can to help bring it forth.
Sage, when I met you, you were already a being of boundless compassion and curiosity. I believe people should follow your example. It is something that I aspire to, and has made me a more patient person.

If I could reduce my personal goal to a simple sentence, it is that I want to work to secure a modestly decent future for humanity. I believe you have shown me with your words and deeds that you carry the same goal within you. Even if we are sometimes worlds apart in our thinking, we have at least that one thing in common.

Maybe you believed that you could help the world by sharing your knowledge with others through it, as I have also believed myself. And maybe it has. But for me, you changed me through your inspiring example.

I believe you may have been the 9th? person I followed on Neocities, and the first to follow me back. Definitely the first person to have a genuine conversation with me. If it weren't for you, I most likely would have given up on that space a lot sooner than I did, and we wouldn't be here right now.

I have a lot in my life to thank you for. 💜
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by Hermitage »

I loved the aim and what was accomplished here. As sad as it is to see this die, I'm far more grateful that it existed in the first place. I know that it can't have been easy to create a community like the Yesterweb; I also know it can't have been easy to make the difficult decision to shut it down. Thank you for all your hard work and your sincerity. I am sure I am not the only person you have inspired.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by AlienFromPlanetZorg »

By the time I got into the yesterweb community, it was already on the decline. I don't have friends here. I'm not really active. I tried to engage a few times, but I think for some things you sort of have to be there very early on to really be sad when it ends. So I'm not sad. A little disappointed but the reasons are understandable. What I've learned here, though, that'll last a lifetime.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

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madness wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:50 pm I have a lot in my life to thank you for. 💜
You humble me. Your kindness, consideration, and insight have helped me to grow in many ways too. 💜

AuzzieJay wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 5:48 pm I want to shed some light on my experiences with the Yesterweb as well...
This is a really interesting write-up Auzzie. I'm so happy that you and Madness are taking the time to explain these things. I appreciate it.

How can we address each of those "core issues" without alienating anyone? If I may, I would like to share some general ideas. All of it will be colored by my own interpretations, but anyone and everyone is welcome to offer their opinions, no matter how different. I sincerely hope that this will inspire constructive dialogue (i.e.: a reciprocal interchange that leads to mutual growth)...
AuzzieJay wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 5:48 pm 1. Nostalgia was too powerful - Nostalgia is by its nature reactionary. Wanting to go to a time in the past is usually not a progressive act to take- what we wanted to do was have people use nostalgia (actually historical materialism) to understand the current state of the web and to help us create a better web TO REPLACE the current web. This didn't happen.
By focusing on the specific reasons why people feel a sense of nostalgia, we can use it to inspire the creation of new things. For example: What features of the "old web" helped to facilitate conditions that fostered the development of genuine friendships? How can we translate that into the designs of the "new web"? Like you astutely point out in your Sour Fruit article, nostalgia has an important therapeutic function in people's lives. If we can fulfill the need that it serves within the present moment, then perhaps people would be less inclined to continually fantasize about a romanticized past.
AuzzieJay wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 5:48 pm 2. Class Conflicts - We attracted people that were not and probably are not revolutionary in nature. Many of the folks we attracted grew up with technology in their homes, which means they probably grew up in a relatively wealthy family. In order to even begin to see the contradictions in the current web they would have to resolve the conflicts in their own class identity- something which is extremely difficult. (for transparency, I grew up wealthy and had a PC in my home in the 1990s- which was quite the rarity for the bulk of humanity)
There are human concerns that transcend "class" boundaries. Can collaborating on their resolution unite people instead of driving a wedge between them? For example: The negative psychological impact of the algorithms used on "social media" platforms affect people independently of their level of wealth. It can even affect those who don't use a computer as the behaviors that it conditions in those that do are carried over into life offline. How can we help each other to heal?

It is interesting to note that, if a "counter-culture" is to become the "new mainstream", then that implies that it will subsume and redirect what already exists. It must transmute destructive tendencies into constructive ones for the benefit of All, none excluded. Tools are adopted willingly when people can see the benefit of using them.
AuzzieJay wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 5:48 pm 3. Techies and Artists - One of the coolest things of the YW was how we attracted artists AND techies. This cross-pollination was our greatest strength- but without the ability to use a common language- we could not coalesce the two groups.
Art can "beautify" an online space to make it more inviting, can be used as a medium to convey deeply meaningful messages at a glance, and so on. Similarly, coding and tinkering with electronics can be a creative act that is limited only by one's imagination. We can work towards making things "beautiful" in function and aesthetics simultaneously. The design of anything requires both technical skill and artistic vision (e.g.: websites have both a "front end" and a "back end").
AuzzieJay wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 5:48 pm 4. Too Big, Too Fast - We grew too fast, in too many directions and were not able to coalesce around anything other than 'lets make personal websites'. At the time I too called for people to make their own websites, because to me it was the first step towards leaving the modern web... but there was a contradiction to unravel...

In Marxism we are to find the contradictions at every step, in every interaction, to fully understand a situation. In calling for people to create personal websites, we actually isolated ourselves from each other rather than coming together. We created personal spaces rather than creating one revolutionary space.
Growth can be stabilized into a "steady state" through feedback. To use an analogy: Hold the break down, one goes nowhere. Hold the gas down, one can veer off course and crash. We need both a break pedal and a gas pedal in order to get anywhere safely.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by madness »

purelyconstructive wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:47 am Growth can be stabilized into a "steady state" through feedback. To use an analogy: Hold the break down, one goes nowhere. Hold the gas down, one can veer off course and crash. We need both a break pedal and a gas pedal in order to get anywhere safely.
I do agree with everything you have said directed towards Auzzie's analysis, I think they are all good considerations.

I'll be a little busy from now on so I just wanted to share something short related to this quote.

I remember back a long time ago, likely over a year ago, a new member joined and was expressing some anxiety about the long-term stability of the (then Discord) space. They asked something like "Nobody has avoided an Eternal September thus far. How can you be certain this won't happen here?"

I responded with something like "it is highly likely that it will happen one day here. this can't last forever. the yesterweb will inevitably cease to exist and be replaced with something else." I don't remember the exact words. But I do distinctly remember someone commenting that what I sad was "ominous." It made at least one person uneasy. All I did was describe the way of all things. The steady state is a temporary illusion, at least in my perspective ;)

There are so many people who want to be assured that good things will last forever. I could never do that for them because I don't believe it myself, and I don't want to lie to them. These are unresolvable cultural difference, at least unresolvable at this point in time. Sometimes it's not only about developing a purely constructive culture, because there is no guarantee that everyone will adopt such a culture if it goes against their deeply-held beliefs. Individual human beings don't have an eternity to resolve their problems, only a lifetime.

We were riding a cyclical wave of consolidation and expansion. Consolidation is like making our internal machinery more efficient, we acheived this by becoming more organized. A successful consolidation will typically lead to more expansion. Expansion is like increasing our connections to more people who are further away and drawing them nearer to us. A successful expansion will lead to more consolidation, and so on.

So the question has to be asked: where did this process fail and why? We finally reached an expansion that we were not able to consolidate afterwards. Why were we not able to consolidate? I think this question was already answered throughout the posts in this topic, maybe not in a clean and simple way.

But we are working on a summary that will hopefully make more sense of it for any interested person.

Peace.
we seek greater knowledge to make greater decisions when the time for making decisions appears - to be the most capable versions of ourselves in any situation that arises - this is why we study - this is why we learn
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purelyconstructive
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by purelyconstructive »

madness wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:28 am All I did was describe the way of all things. The steady state is a temporary illusion, at least in my perspective ;)
Awhile back, I posed a question before I began to meditate:

"How do you create something permanent amidst constant change?"

Clear as day, I received:

"You repeat it forever."

To some this might sound like stagnation, to me it sounds like consistency. The effects of an action motivated by Love ripple through time, interlinking every moment, transcending the context in which it arose.

...Ah, but I am "talking like a nerd" now.

Peace.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by Sadness »

It has taken me a while to get my thoughts together but I finally have found some words.

I know that I have been quiet. I've actually been pretty quiet ever since the YW server was about 6 months old. I have never done well in crowded social places, not even online. I tend to withdraw into myself, and be more comfortable watching from the sidelines. That wasn't very leaderly of me. I'm sorry.

This was my first experience ever running a community, or being a leader of any sort. In fact, running a whole entire community was never my intention. To be completely honest, I never would have chosen to be either of those things. I just don't think those roles vibe with my overall demeanor. I tend to be quiet in social situations and have a pretty bad habit of being too nice and getting myself into trouble. Yet I found myself in this position anyway.

If you're wondering why I would even make the YW if I'm opposed to running a community, that's because it started out as more of a group chat. I never expected more than a handful of people to join, but then they did, and I didn't want to destroy something that meant a lot to others out of my own cowardice.

In fact, a couple of months after starting the YW space, I had this very real …experience/awakening that I'm not going to get into the details of. It made me have to re-evaluate a lot of my choices and behaviors, and then I needed to commit to a decision about how I continue to live my life. Afterward, "Sadness" changed, or rather, transformed. If this had never happened, I might have been comfortable keeping the YW an aimless-but-comfy hobby server. But an aimless-but-comfy existence is exactly the kind of thing I'd chosen to leave behind.

Fast-forward to now, especially since the shutdown news, I have received a lot of feedback (both directly and indirectly) about the course that the YW took over time. It's true that the focus of the group was less on being part of the dominant wave of the web revival community, and more on fostering change, like what we've been talking about in this thread. We have received a lot of criticism about these decisions, usually from people who felt that by shifting the YW's purpose to something more 'serious', that it was hindering members' ability to just have fun and relax. Some people even said we were shoving propaganda down their throats.

I'd like to roughly quote a post from a forum (you can read the original in context here), which puts my thoughts into words better than I could have:
"It's a little distressing to me to see so many people right now deride the very political essence and core of advocacy of the web revival as a movement. [...] The web revival as a whole movement is and should be very much political and have an ideology.

It should not just be [about] making a funny looking website. [...] If it was just for the aesthetic of making a personal website, then we wouldn't need the web revival.

The special part of the web revival is the community around it, the collective anger against social media, exploitation, proprietary software and the growing censorship and unification of the internet into a few powerful political and economic actors.

The 'propaganda shoved down our throat, let us just have fun without all of these politics' comment[s] just feel like the same thing we get [told] when we try to advocate for, say, queer rights in public.

That advocating for a better world is nowadays considered 'cringe', 'selfish', 'overbearing' and 'annoying' is a pathetic display for the state of the world."
I could not have said it better myself.

I will never stop trying to make the world a better place, even if it's only in the smallest ways. I enjoy having fun and being creative, but I would never be satisfied if I made that my personal endgame in life. In the same vein, I could never just ignore the social and systemic issues that have surrounded me my entire life. I don't claim to be an activist, or to perform activism; I never did. I just wanted to take what we had and do something meaningful with it.

I'd like to also dispel any notion that anyone has coerced or manipulated me to close down the community. Nothing close to it. This was as much my decision, as it was the decision of the other admins and moderators.

I've heard a lot of "how much work could moderation actually be" on the sidelines, and man, I just don't know how to respond to that. It's an incredible amount of work, if you strive to do it in the most constructive way possible. There are certainly ways to moderate that can conserve energy and prevent burnout, but they usually involve avoiding conflict - something we as a moderation team have striven to not do.

As someone with social anxiety, I really, truly understand the desire to avoid conflict. Even when it's constructive, it's uncomfortable. But it's something that I believe is worth doing, because it leads to growth, transformation and (hopefully) unity as outlined in our etiquette and in the posts we've made in this thread. Moderating this way is extremely high-effort and exceptionally draining. Even though we (obviously) don't want to continue down this particular path, I personally don't have any regrets for the choices we've made, because we've seen what good can come of it. I hope others do too.

Anyway, I know that was a lot, and I have been stewing on these words for a while, just struggling to find a way to put them down in a way that makes sense. Hopefully this helps shed some light on my thoughts, despite how quiet I have been.

I'm always here reading everything that happens though, and I am super appreciative of everyone's participation 💖
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by OiStepanka »

I just want to say ..

You folks are beautiful in your exchanges. @ Madness and @Purely Constructive, @ Sadness and so many others, Ray included. I feel as though anything that comes out of here will be the foundation of a greater tomorrow.
"Do It Now, Not Later."
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by OiStepanka »

I've heard a lot of "how much work could moderation actually be" on the sidelines, and man, I just don't know how to respond to that. It's an incredible amount of work, if you strive to do it in the most constructive way possible. There are certainly ways to moderate that can conserve energy and prevent burnout, but they usually involve avoiding conflict - something we as a moderation team have striven to not do.
To those people, as a person who has been a mod elsewhere long ago.

Being a Moderator is like being a Parent. An Administrator, a Moderator. To Protect, Defend, and Lead, and Orchestrate a community.

Some have more responsibilities, some have less but are extremely targeted and specific. The key thing a mod needs to do is pay attention. With rarely any breaks. They have to be present.

And

In a world like ours the way it is today.. notifications ringing off the hook, having a job and having to stay aware of late night projects or those issues cropping up, having a family and actual kids that need help cropping up.

and then. being a parent: to the internet.

To others of multiple ages. Adults who can be crude, terrorist like, posting suspect material and having to ban them and get rid of it takes thoroughness and time. You have to sift through that like a fine tooth comb.

To the teens who are going through that harder stage of transformation, may be suicidal on the extreme end and need a place to be while subsequently getting them to a hotline number because you are not a professional, just a mod.

To kids who are unattended by their families at home and now in some respect, it is your responsibility to make sure you have safe channels so as actual adults can continue conversations while safe guarding the minds of the next generation.

Being a mod can be a full time job. Let's say it starts off with 5 people. That's manageable. But then 2500+.. like here.

That's.. the same bs happening an a exponential level and if you want to quantify it, ask ChatGPT.

The point is.. it's a lot of work. more than people would ever be willing to admit or expect for the uninitiated into
"mod-dom."

Any place that is worth protecting needs security. Mods serve that role.
But they are not law enforcement. They don't have guns. They aren't skilled hackers (maybe, maybe not, haha.)

They are regular people doing the best they can so that you can have a good, safe, experience. and no. It doesn't come free.

You know why the forum doesn't have spam of human under parts running through it? Mods.

You know why this place hasn't disappeared off the internet due to a DDOS attack? Pure luck.
or more likely, Mods.

Mod's.. are the white blood cells to the internets immune system and without them?
Your I.P. Address is dead buddy. You are at risk for the suspect of the suspect to run through your server because if anyone has played GTA V.. people too often like to watch the world burn. And Art imitates life..
(If you played GTA III Liberty City in chaos mode where everyone gets weapons including little old ladies... you know what kind of nightmare I'm talking about.)
Can't let that be your world, though.
So, MODS.

If you are a fan of of anime like me, Think Attack on Titan season 1.
Lose one of those walls and.. Titans are literally in the city. All hell will break loose.
But never fear!
You're trained mods will go scale the wall and risk their lives, for the sake of internet civility and maintenance of culture.

No. They don't get paid.
They do it out of the kindness of their hearts with a sense of duty.
They do it because no one else will.
(or in petty servers, y'know fame. but with those places you find those with mod as a title only all too often then sh*t hits the fan and gee.. I wonder why.)

So. Yes. Thank You Mod Team.
Thank You Sadness.
Thank You YesterWeb for combatting internet b.s.
Because.. theres a lot of it.
But as long as someone fights back and builds a fortified Fortress.
Civilization will be maintained.

(Or you know, get a weapon, a tent and fight bears on your own.
Bears outside the zoo aren't cute. They're ruthless.
The internet psychos are the same.
God Bless The Mods.)
"Do It Now, Not Later."
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by abacus »

This may be a long one, I apologize, but I have been thoroughly reading and taking note of this whole thread.

I can't specifically recall when I found myself at the pearly gates of the yesterweb. I would guess I stumbled upon it in 2021...But I definitely saw Sadness's website first on Neocities. More on that later.

The following is a little bit of background for those interested in how and why I found the yesterweb.

I think what happened on my end is that during 2020, I became enraptured by the Internet Archive, GifCities, the Macintosh Repository (Abandonware), and Sheepshaver (emulator for MacOS 9). I became engrossed in this exploration of the past. With the tumultuous societal challenges and horrors that transpired during 2020, I found myself fascinated by civilization and how it changes over time. I realized that there had been endless amounts of history before this time. (obviously, I knew this but it never really settled in my head like this before). So, this led me to explore the past but a recent past, the early internet. This possibly stemmed from influences like James Ferraro, Oneohtrix Point Never, and the overall Vaporwave scene. I found out about Vaporwave very late in the 2010's probably around 2017 when I heard George Clanton's album "Slide". Concepts like "hauntology", "hyperreality", and "hypnagogia" entered my world and haven't left.

I should also note, I am of the generation that was fully raised in the time of the Internet i.e. Zoomer. I VIVIDLY remember as a 6-year-old kid exploring the infancy of youtube and watching "Leave Britney Alone" and unfortunately the "you touched my tralala" song LOL. I have since been entrenched in all things Internet. So yes, I am also a nostalgia head just like everyone else here ahah.

I am about to type the following information because throughout this thread there is a discussion on the differing perspectives on what the Yesterweb was seeking to accomplish and how it was possibly lost during the growth. e.g. counter-cultural intentions, societal change and influence, nostalgia, and the organizer's system of creating this community.
madness wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:35 pmThe manifesto does not clearly state the counter-cultural aspect, but it is implied. After all, what ultimately matters is how you put the manifesto into practice and not what the words in the manifesto actually say. If these writings are transforming you and your relationships with others, and you are in turn transforming others, then the counter-cultural transformation is happening even if you are not conscious of it in name-and-concept when it is happening.
madness wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:03 am We learned through past experience that it was extremely hard to get people who don't care to start caring. Since that didn't work, we instead worked on a way to attract a new type of person. We weren't certain such people even existed, yet here you are, in the (virtual) flesh.
When I was a senior in high school, I had a sudden internal shift in how I should interact with this world. It was specifically an AP Art History class I took that pushed an internal reevaluation of what humanity is, and how I as a human being should interact with said humanity. I saw art pieces dated far in the past (and contemporary), yet had landmark historical significance containing heavy, challenging, brutal, and beautiful moments in human history that still evoked those emotions to this day. I recall seeing pieces like Manet's "Olympia", Duchamp's "Fountain", Grunewald's "Isenheim altarpiece", Basqiuat's "Horn Players", etc., and thinking "These artists, are using these pieces to convey a message, they are using their art as pure expression, unabashedly pushing themselves to evoke strong emotions for the sake of expressing a deep resonating experience which NEEDs to be discussed, challenged, and interpreted".

I said to myself "I wanna do that".

This internal revelation created a seed then that has slowly been growing into my own personal exploration of how I should reflect on and interpret this experience through art.

It was around this time that I thought of a personal philosophy for myself as I grow: "Don't disregard the information being taught as useless, because although it may be disconnected from the main interests one finds themselves in, it can be utilized for one's personal journey as tools for self-expression" I discovered this when I was taking biology in high school and found myself taking the diagrams of cells and using that as inspiration for my art.

I write this because of what I've seen in this thread. I feel as if, in music terms, we have hit the "pocket". This is the discussion I have been wanting and seeking for a long time. What led me here might have been what Madness was talking about when bringing up searching for a new type of person. I just, unfortunately, came to it when it was too big and felt intimidated to ask to help. ALTHOUGH, I did get a chance to participate in the recent Zine which was a huge accomplishment on my end. I was going to eventually ask if you need help with the zine, and if you do I am still highly interested and open to working on it with you all.

I became interested in the Yesterweb because it registered immediately in my head that it had intentions to create a community that challenged the never questioned ordained and curtained corporate web that has somehow attached itself like cancer to a once-believed concept of progressing human communication and knowledge through networks across the world.

Madness and the other organizers, I think having the foundation of a DIY community focused on self-expression where we can communicate based on shared interests created magic.
AuzzieJay wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 5:48 pm Techies and Artists - One of the coolest things of the YW was how we attracted artists AND techies. This cross-pollination was our greatest strength- but without the ability to use a common language- we could not coalesce the two groups.
When I was creating my website, my teacher, who was teaching CSS and HTML to students and was in the industry of all that Tech stuff, helped tremendously and was surprisingly open to helping me create my website. Of course he was a teacher so that may have been the reason ahah. Also during those four years, there would be annual Game Jams across different universities that all came together with different skill sets to create games. It was, in fact, a combination of artists and techies. I happen to be in the artist demographic of this example but to coalesce the two one could possibly use that model of making a sort of workshop environment to create websites or experiences. Which would be good for Madness's remark:
madness wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:35 pm Another thing I think would be cool is if we worked on collective websites rather than personal websites. Wouldn't it be really nice if you met people that you trusted enough and were comfortable enough with that you could share an account and build a website together?
Yet, with such a small amount of moderators how in the hell could this be organized? I sympathize with your frustration when you probably had these ideas already, but couldn't get to them due to a lack of manpower.

--

When Madness started going off about the counter-cultural intentions of the Yesterweb, I was utterly in awe. Mentally, I was jumping off the walls; I FOUND IT!

I cannot express how much I've been searching, NEEDING to be a part of something that defines the growing feeling of not being seen, not being perceived and understood by the mainstream. And by mainstream I mean the plasticity, vacuous hellscape of "everything is okay" consumerism. I PERSONALLY have felt that the very basic fundamental expression of our emotions, NEEDED to have a healthy society has been tarnished by this weird paradigm of ignoring key aspects of what being human is. It has been replaced by this odd commercialized husk that hides away any deep contemplation of Sex, Death, Self-Expression, Introspection, and ESPECIALLY CHANGE. Things like Uber, Doordash, and Mark Zuckerberg's face come to mind when I think of this superficial "make everything efficient for the sake of progression" attitude. It's completely ignoring any facet of humanity and simplifies the intricacies of how we grow and transform over time. STAGNANT is the word that best describes the world right now for me. We are on the precipice of great change GOOD AND BAD and yet the powers that be are backtracking to keep us stuck in place.

In the U.S. specifically, in 2020, there was a huge wave of social activism and a zeitgeist-like feeling of almost breaching the surface; of finally breaking through this stagnant hell. It was the undulating undercurrents of rage, feeling ignored, and horrible acts of racism and DOMESTIC TERRORISM that exploded through the mainstream consciousness. I for one became extremely radicalized. I have been searching for people who share an interest in procuring a counter-cultural movement since!

For the last couple of years, I have been living halfway in the 60s. There is something that happened during that time that evokes a visceral exploration of humanity. From the Beatniks to the hippies the counter-cultural movement that happened during that time is romanticized in my head. I yearn to be a part of a greater artistic movement filled with the want to create a landmark in our timeline that is left for future generations to look back on as a backbone for when they experience life.
madness wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:50 pm If I could reduce my personal goal to a simple sentence, it is that I want to work to secure a modestly decent future for humanity. I believe you have shown me with your words and deeds that you carry the same goal within you. Even if we are sometimes worlds apart in our thinking, we have at least that one thing in common.
When I discovered Neocities for the first time (2021), I found Cinni's website. I was entering my senior year of college, they wanted us to create a thesis for our senior project that encapsulated our personal style and philosophy. When I saw websites like Goblin Gamer, Melonland, and Cinni's Dream Home I felt the need to create something like that. I decided to focus my thesis on Internet Culture. My goal was to create an experience online in hopes to inspire future generations to search for self-expression even when met with limitations. This is where my website UIFI_OSOS came from. I was so inspired by the Yesterweb, Cinni, and Melonking that I took it upon myself to use my senior year to research Internet History, which will be a memory of exciting journeys to the library and finding out they actually had books about web design and the history of the internet. I was stunned I found a niche topic that had decades of history to be plundered.

This community greatly affected my direction in my career as an artist and pushed me to explore not only the history of the internet and how it ties into its greater impact on society but also my personal relationship with it. No one was doing what I was doing in school, and I should add when I would present my progress on my website the professors would come at it from an angle of how it would work in the industry. They were always looking at how my project could be commercialized and consumed rather than experienced and influential to future generations for the mere fact of self-expression. But, I could see among my peers it made them happy, it made them excited to talk about how it used to be. It was nostalgic but also a reminder of what it could actually be like, that happiness and community can still be achieved, I think in some way they felt understood.

I'm glad we all found each other online to share that excitement of creating something that expresses something so innately human. It is something that can be easily lost, but this thread has some people who are stern in making it possible.

If you wanna reach out my email is uifi.osos.wizard@gmail.com. This thread will keep me goin for a while. (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧
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Re: The forum is shutting down

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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by Melonking »

Sadness wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:25 pm I'd like to roughly quote a post from a forum (you can read the original in context here), which puts my thoughts into words better than I could have:
I thought it was worth chiming in to add that me and /home/ (who wrote the original post) have been debating about this subject for months across multiple threads - we are always at loggerheads and never agree, but it's always in good humour. However, I would like to add my usual counter-point to it!

The thing is that aesthetics are political; funny-looking websites are the results of an ideology. Change doesn't need to come from anger and dissent; in fact, I’d say it rarely does; it comes from good humour and hard work, and speaking to people in a language they can understand. Funny-looking websites are a language that says “We stand for something else”.

Cosy spaces are not just cosy spaces - they are radical; you’re cosy when you're in control of your space and when it's working for you. Social media is never cosy because its goal is to control you, but it should be the other way around.

I remember a quote from an old travel show that went something like “Any fool can be uncomfortable, the thing to do is make yourself comfortable.” - I would add to that; to take an idea, or a way of life that’s unusual or uncomfortable, and make it comfy - that’s exactly what you did with the YW in its early months; intentionally or not, it was never aimless.

Conflict is neither here nor there; it's one way of talking to a person among others. In its last months the YW didn't just not-avoid conflict, it chose it as its primary means of interaction.

So we had our conflicts; and after them, I sat by the sea and watched the sunset.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by madness »

Melonking wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:42 pm I remember a quote from an old travel show that went something like “Any fool can be uncomfortable, the thing to do is make yourself comfortable.” - I would add to that; to take an idea, or a way of life that’s unusual or uncomfortable, and make it comfy - that’s exactly what you did with the YW in its early months; intentionally or not, it was never aimless.

Conflict is neither here nor there; it's one way of talking to a person among others. In its last months the YW didn't just not-avoid conflict, it chose it as its primary means of interaction.

So we had our conflicts; and after them, I sat by the sea and watched the sunset.
Melonking wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:42 pm Change doesn't need to come from anger and dissent; in fact, I’d say it rarely does; it comes from good humour and hard work
Hmmm I don't know, we may have different perspectives on what "conflict" actually is. The early Yesterweb was not devoid of conflict. We were fighting about philosophy, do you remember that? Remember sharing a Bertrand Russell video? I do. I remember you quite well, you were argumentative and always inserted your beliefs into any conversation that went against them. Your position always devolved into some sort of care-free nihilism, especially after any sort of challenge to your beliefs.

I've been stressed a lot, but I've only been angry twice, and none of that anger was due to conflict. The anger was due to my own serious mistakes. The conflict was there from our start, but it's possible that our idea of conflict is more generalized than yours. Before you left to focus on your community, you and I engaged in ideological conflict several times. And then you sailed away.
Melonking wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:42 pm Conflict is neither here nor there; it's one way of talking to a person among others. In its last months the YW didn't just not-avoid conflict, it chose it as its primary means of interaction.
We didn't choose conflict, conflict necessarily arises of its own accord. You wouldn't be posting here if that were not the case. What we did differently than others and especially different than melonland is that we practiced conflict resolution instead of conflict avoidance. This is a healthy, productive, conflict, even if it is difficult to have. In an idealized reality it wouldn't exist, and we wouldn't want it to, but since it does in actuality, we choose to face it. Conflict resolution is hard work.

So you are absolutely correct in saying "funny-looking websites are the results of an ideology." We decided to challenge that because we have ideological differences, we are ideologically opposed to it. There is nothing wrong with this, it's completely natural. You can have your space with your preference of ideology and there is nothing that we can do to stop you or anyone who wants to inhabit that ideological space. They may not be aware that it's ideological, but it is.
we seek greater knowledge to make greater decisions when the time for making decisions appears - to be the most capable versions of ourselves in any situation that arises - this is why we study - this is why we learn
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by isabz »

HI, posting my thoughts here before it all shuts down!

It's a little sad that the forum is shutting down, but reading through this thread I certainly understand why - it doesn't sound easy to deal with a community of this scale.

I wonder if I was considered one of the 90% who didn't care? I wasn't too active on the discord server, and even less so on the forum, but I enjoyed the things I read and the chats I had with people. I do think this community genuinely gave me a healthier relationship with the way I use the internet - I never used social media all that much anyway, but this really helped me put my finger on something that had always bothered me about the modern internet, but that I couldn't articulate. I loved looking through everyone's websites, I loved being inspired by them to make my own, and how everyone's personalities shone through in them.

Getting someone to maintain their activity in a community like this, let alone getting them to push forward in some unspecified way, is a big ask! We all have busy lives, this is the kind of thing I could only be active in with the limitless free time of a child. I have like 20 hobbies, collecting more every day, and I'm passionate about all of them! Ultimately, this could have only ever taken up 1/20 of my free time.

I'm not too surprised it turned out this way, considering I kinda saw the direction the discord was going in. Regardless, I'll still try to keep using the principles of the YW in my everyday life (that random site button from yesterlinks is a godsend, keeps me from scrolling forever) and suggesting that others in my real life try it too. I hope this post didn't sound like I was excusing my own inactivity too much >︿< I wanted to make it clear that people probably care more than you think, even if we don't always show it! All my love to the lurkers.

Anyways, seeya! ヾ( ̄▽ ̄)
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Re: The forum is shutting down

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madness wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:11 pm I remember you quite well, you were argumentative and always inserted your beliefs into any conversation that went against them. Your position always devolved into some sort of care-free nihilism, especially after any sort of challenge to your beliefs.
I always regretted that it wasn't a better version of me that had been able to exist then. I suppose it's a little late, but I apologise for being a major pain! I doubt I'll ever not be one, but I try!
madness wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:11 pm different than melonland is that we practiced conflict resolution instead of conflict avoidance
I think the only thing I could add is that there are two kinds of conflict avoidance - there's the kind that ends a conversation and the kind that continues the conversation in a non-conflict-centric way. Iv always tried to achieve the latter; it's not always obvious, but it's always there.
madness wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:11 pm You can have your space with your preference of ideology and there is nothing that we can do to stop you or anyone who wants to inhabit that ideological space.
Of course; our paths go separate ways from here on out, they split long ago; but it's nice to try and tidy things up - It terrifies me to have to face a version of the web revival without the YW; I didn't expect ML to exist without it, for the first time, I won't have you guys to guide me (or at least annoy me into doing the opposite)! I think Iv got a fine ship, but now its sailing in uncharted waters :surprise: Exciting!
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by madness »

isabz wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:04 pm I wonder if I was considered one of the 90% who didn't care? I wasn't too active on the discord server, and even less so on the forum, but I enjoyed the things I read and the chats I had with people. I do think this community genuinely gave me a healthier relationship with the way I use the internet - I never used social media all that much anyway, but this really helped me put my finger on something that had always bothered me about the modern internet, but that I couldn't articulate. I loved looking through everyone's websites, I loved being inspired by them to make my own, and how everyone's personalities shone through in them.

Getting someone to maintain their activity in a community like this, let alone getting them to push forward in some unspecified way, is a big ask! We all have busy lives, this is the kind of thing I could only be active in with the limitless free time of a child. I have like 20 hobbies, collecting more every day, and I'm passionate about all of them! Ultimately, this could have only ever taken up 1/20 of my free time.

I'm not too surprised it turned out this way, considering I kinda saw the direction the discord was going in. Regardless, I'll still try to keep using the principles of the YW in my everyday life (that random site button from yesterlinks is a godsend, keeps me from scrolling forever) and suggesting that others in my real life try it too. I hope this post didn't sound like I was excusing my own inactivity too much >︿< I wanted to make it clear that people probably care more than you think, even if we don't always show it! All my love to the lurkers.

Anyways, seeya! ヾ( ̄▽ ̄)
Oh no, you definitely sound like the type who cares. If you think you don't care, trust me, there's people who care less. It's very hard to quantify lurkers and the approximate percentages I used there were a reflection of active participants - people I got to know from either observation or conversation. I don't think I've met you, but I might have forgotten.

I have memories of possibly hundreds of people in the past two years. I remember things that they have said to me, to others, significant events involving them, and even their personal growth. I got to know them as human beings and help them grow, even if only a little for some of them. I have sacrificed a lot to do this, and wanted to give up many times, but I'm still working up until the very end because I know without a doubt that it has been worth it. Anyway, in the end, for me, it ends up being experience that will be applied to more difficult and complicated projects in the future. It's my (unpaid) job, essentially.

I can't expect that out of you, especially if it's just a hobby, but I can motivate you to go just a little bit further out of your comfort zone. I can only help you push forward as far as you are willing to go. If I had gotten to know you one-on-one, I could have shown you why it's worth it. But it didn't work out that way and that's okay. I wish the best for you in your future.
Melonking wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:11 pm for the first time, I won't have you guys to guide me (or at least annoy me into doing the opposite)
Don't worry, something else will come by to annoy you. I am pretty sure of that. It's just the way of all things.
Melonking wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:11 pm I always regretted that it wasn't a better version of me that had been able to exist then. I suppose it's a little late, but I apologise for being a major pain! I doubt I'll ever not be one, but I try!
You are growing - that's all I could have ever asked of you. Good luck on your journey!
we seek greater knowledge to make greater decisions when the time for making decisions appears - to be the most capable versions of ourselves in any situation that arises - this is why we study - this is why we learn
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by glacial_pace »

Melonking wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:11 pm there's the kind that ends a conversation and the kind that continues the conversation in a non-conflict-centric way. Iv always tried to achieve the latter; it's not always obvious, but it's always there.
my man,,,,, you literally delete people's posts, edit their words, and lock or move topics that you don't want to continue. that is the complete opposite of continuing conversation
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by ch1rx30 »

madness wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:37 am
ch1rx30 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 4:45 am Trying right now. Are the community guidelines and rules from the discord archived somewhere?
The community guidelines and rules were absorbed/abstracted/concentrated into the manifesto and etiquette. We don't think copy-pasting rules and such will work. You have to do the best of your ability to fit your understanding into the space you are trying to create, because it will be unique to that space.

(but there are the forum rules and guidelines if you want to take a look)
ch1rx30 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 4:45 am Also looking for a reader-friendly breakdown of subculture vs counter-culture to share.
Image

Update: I tried. Results were... interesting. Consensus (of a small sample) was that the underground is a "secret third thing" which is kind of evasive but characteristic. Definitely got through to a few people before discord fell apart (still not sure if server owner was a scammer or a visionary). Either way, better understand your perspective now. Thanks for the infographic.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by OiStepanka »

ch1rx30 » Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:13 pm Update: I tried. Results were... interesting. Consensus (of a small sample) was that the underground is a "secret third thing" which is kind of evasive but characteristic. Definitely got through to a few people before discord fell apart (still not sure if server owner was a scammer or a visionary). Either way, better understand your perspective now. Thanks for the infographic.

Scammer Visionary: Eddy, from Ed, Edd, and Eddy.

..Don't mind me, those two words just gave me that mental imagine..

Continue with the intellectual rapport of future building endeavors with some of the worlds brightest minds..

While I... momentarily, chuckle to myself over here.
"Do It Now, Not Later."
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by OiStepanka »

I just wanna take the time to thank all of your for your responses and insights and especially Madness for continuing to reply with quality posts throughout this whole shutdown.

Like doing that.. actually has had an effect, especially on me as an individual. I can now respond back and forth with people in dialouge on the facts in long form writing... instead of suffering from TLDR social media induced crippling effects of not having enough time to make a lasting impact that has societal meaning in a comment thread that honestly is like seed spilling of biological material that no one is going to use or preserve in a genetic bank, haha, because we are being ingrained not care by those who have a disposition, or so it would seem.. not to care.

Seriously, Thank You for being an example of giving a damn. I know it's time consuming. It's challenging. But it is appreciated. If this is the democracy Greeks hoped to have, actually had, or what was intended in the form of dialouge.. direct dialouge (direct democracy?) Then I can see how it would lead to a better government. Because the intimacy of dialouge gives people the sense they actually matter.

Instead of it being a brick chucking shit show with crowds.

And to think. We got to this point (this conversation) as strangers online. From countries near and far. Perhaps with fellow country men known and unknown. And it actually works and actually matters and I appreciate your efforts. Because with us all, I hope, and but specifically me in speaking only for myself, your efforts will have lasting effects.
"Do It Now, Not Later."
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by madness »

OiStepanka wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:22 am Seriously, Thank You for being an example of giving a damn. I know it's time consuming. It's challenging. But it is appreciated. If this is the democracy Greeks hoped to have, actually had, or what was intended in the form of dialouge.. direct dialouge (direct democracy?) Then I can see how it would lead to a better government. Because the intimacy of dialouge gives people the sense they actually matter.
Thank you.

It's not only about governance, all of this is important to basic human relationships. Democracy requires us to be simultaneously speakers and listeners, teachers and students, leaders and followers. Is this not also desireable as day-to-day life among people? As strangers, friends, or lovers? To make this real, we have to become new human beings.

The most difficult thing of all was to get others to listen. It wasn't enough to help them, we had to go on strike. It wasn't enough to stop working, we had to start burning things down. It wasn't enough to cripple ourselves, we had to wait until the very last moments before total annihilation for people to finally receive the message that was always intended: we have insight to hidden, powerful, forbidden knowledge, that will not only give you greater control of your own destiny, but also guide all of humanity and possibly even the rest of nature to a respectable common destiny.

At first, this was the response: I am tired of thinking. I am tired of caring. Why can't you let us have fun and be comfortable while the house burns down? Isn't that what is truly radical? Why do you hate us? Why do you hate fun?

But now, things are different, thanks to many of you. I highly doubt any of this will go to waste, regardless if the consequences are invisible, intangible.

As a volunteer service worker, I feel bad that I may have made some people very upset by crushing their toys. As a human being that believes in a bright future and has seen enough evidence for it to be real possibility if we work for it, I could not care less that I ruined the fun.

Thank you for listening.

(I am having fun, by the way. It turns out that fun is subjective, that what one considers fun can be the opposite for another. Sometimes it is not possible for everyone to have fun in the same space. Imagine that. Now that I am finally having fun after all of this time, others are upset. It seems fair, just, balanced to me.)
we seek greater knowledge to make greater decisions when the time for making decisions appears - to be the most capable versions of ourselves in any situation that arises - this is why we study - this is why we learn
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by OiStepanka »

Madness:
At first, this was the response: I am tired of thinking. I am tired of caring. Why can't you let us have fun and be comfortable while the house burns down? Isn't that what is truly radical? Why do you hate us? Why do you hate fun?

You know when you put it that way.. it truly sounds like insanity. And then you begin to realize how much insanity has really become common place. Not to insult anyone at all. Just really, think about it. As a people.. where is our sense of value.

We as society talk about materialism and in this regard I mean the physicality of our love of objects. Or in this case our love of spaces (in response to your comment about breaking this place like a toy) But to broaden that topic, there, really is... a visceral materialism in that we are attached to.. minutiae? Close to what I'm pointing to I'd say...

That causes us to loose touch with the river that connects to actual life and we instead, live in a semi conscious state of perpetuity that does nothing but suck out that which is real, foundational, necessary, and of high value. Essentially.. the soul of people. and its not a guess to me, or as thing of believing or not believing but certain answers lead to conclusion that it is fact.

Some people are indeed, the walking dead.

Which I would lead people here to question their state of mind, and what they really want out of life. Is this.. really all you want? As prolific as it is, just a forum?

Or just the internet as it was?

Or do you want what the internet was?

A community of people who used the heights of human mental effort that perceptibly and literally built a new realm like nothing we ever witnessed before in human history?

The internet is fascinating because what exists is.. an entire new space. Outside of governments, continents, that we converge on for engaging discussions if we don't get siloed into the trappings of the exterior world around us that has as much of a grip as a python.

The internet existence proves without the shadow of a doubt that we.. if, collectively put that type of mental stamina in along with the physical work load? Can have greater than that which we participate in now. Both in physicality and in mental consciousness. We have the power to go beyond this matrix and build something fantastic..
If we just stop to think.. about what we truly value.

And also Madness, you are most welcome!
"Do It Now, Not Later."
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by purelyconstructive »

Looking Back To See Beyond

Bucking trends of changing fashion,
affinity we bring.
Transform pain into compassion
for place within a Ring.
Making space may seem a small thing,
not so much of a change.
But acceptance makes the heart sing,
“No longer am I strange!”

We remember the day we met,
conversing on the wire.
Connected through this Internet
and words that do inspire.
It is friends that lift us higher,
over that lonely wall.
And should our grip on this truth tire,
our Web will catch our fall.

So, if it’s okay for sharing,
state what is on your mind.
Distilled from our constant caring,
a vision that is kind.
Separation can make us blind
to honesty so rare,
for when looking back we shall find
a Love that’s always there.


...Much Love to you All.
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by madness »

:love:

the summary will be finished and posted tomorrow
it is very late and very long. sorry
we hope you will find it useful
we seek greater knowledge to make greater decisions when the time for making decisions appears - to be the most capable versions of ourselves in any situation that arises - this is why we study - this is why we learn
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by SmithToons »

parting is such sweet sorrow. but I had some good memories on this forum
if you wanna contact me here are some socials
MSN Messenger: mrsmitty@escargot.com
Discord: smitty#7224
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Re: The forum is shutting down

Post by Sadness »

Here is a link to the summary, which has been posted on the homepage of Yesterweb.org: https://yesterweb.org/#summary.

The forum will be set to read-only shortly.
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