Nice online spaces for socializing

[Ray]

Heyo! In light of the soon to happen forums' closure, I thought it'd be cool to have a thread to share places similiar in spirit to the Yesterweb & its forums.
So - little, kind, good natured nooks of the internet where likeminded people can come together, be creative, make friends, share their projects, etc. Be it forums, chatrooms, discord servers, telegram channels, IRC, whatever. Share all you've got! Doesn't have to be old style or about webmaking necessarily!
They can be generalist or more niche, but bonus points if they share the general "commitments" and "etiquette" of Yesterweb in spirit, at least a bit.

I've heard good things about Melonland forums, but I mostly check out the yesterweb forum on mobile during dead times, while Melonland's not really mobile friendly. So I haven't joined in yet to see - maybe someone can chime in?

EDIT: will edit this thread with links to places we discuss here or I read elsewhere on the forum and think they'd be cool to check out!
Forums:
https://the-web-raft.boards.net/ <-- crappy lil proboards I created! Its intended purpose is to be a hub for us to gather back together once this forum closes, and find other spaces to inhabit, make friends, and create groups!
https://basementcommunity.com/
https://forum.melonland.net/ (very heavy handed moderation there)

Niche social media sites:
(I imagine in these there's still the challenge to find your own niche and community, but oh well)
https://multiverse.plus/
https://spacehey.com

[Arevakhach]

I keep a running list of the online spaces I am participating within here: Online Communities

MelonLand's great. I recommend it. Just make sure you fit their positive vibe + read and follow its guidelines.

[Ray]

I keep a running list of the online spaces I am participating within here: Online Communities

Pretty neat idea to list them all out like this! Also ahw how quickly you've updated on Yesterweb forums' death :')
No offence to you personally, but some of those communities you couldn't pay me to inhabit If you're comfortable sharing, how do you reconcile the hyper kind vibe of stuff like Melonland with the vibe of chan-esque users? They seem like complete opposites of a spectrum to me, and have a hard time imagining someone genuinely liking both. (but no worries if you think this might get long or way too controversial)

I also saw basement community mentioned on the forums' closure thread as well, gonna give them a shoutout! https://basementcommunity.com/ Seems like a nice and cozy place and I've signed up for now Love myself some simple and clear rules and mobile friendly interface

MelonLand's great. I recommend it. Just make sure you fit their positive vibe + read and follow its guidelines.

I think I got especially interested in Melonlands after reading their guidelines some time ago tbh. It feels like kind spaces online are more and more scarce. The version of the etiquette I read wasn't this but I like this even more! But it feels a little overwhelming, so I'll have to dip my toes when I have more time and brainpower.

[glacial_pace]

how do you reconcile the hyper kind vibe of stuff like Melonland with the vibe of chan-esque users? They seem like complete opposites of a spectrum to me, and have a hard time imagining someone genuinely liking both. (but no worries if you think this might get long or way too controversial)

i think melonland and, for example, agoraroad are opposite forums where agoraroad doesn't really care if you make fun of other users or have heated discussions, where melonland has 0 tolerance for it. I posted on both for a while, but personally had to delete my account on melonland because the moderation was very heavy-handed to the point where he was deleting posts if 2 people were soft-core arguing in a thread (and no name-calling, just good clean arguing). Or if a thread got derailed, he updated the thread title to match the topic of the derail and would move threads around to different forums for some reason - it wasn't even happening to me but i was a bit shocked at the style of moderation

nothing against melon because it's his forum and he can do what he wants, but yeah that place has a strict "be kind or your posts are getting deleted" culture.

e: in fact, any links to agoraroad would also be grounds for your posts getting edited, which caused a discussion about it over on agoraroad: https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?t ... gora.5240/

[Ray]

[...]personally had to delete my account on melonland because the moderation was very heavy-handed to the point where he was deleting posts if 2 people were soft-core arguing in a thread (and no name-calling, just good clean arguing).

Ah, I can see how that'd get annoying and create a bit of a bubble. Polite arguing and disagreement are the bread and butter of sharing opinions and changing!

On the other hand, complete lack of moderation isn't the way to go either imo.

we don't really care, so as long as it follows the rules, people can say whatever they want, which carries many things, for example, that toxic people can say toxic shit, is not that we are toxic, is just that is the core value of agora road, a place in which pretentious social outcasts can rant and talk shit about their delusion of persecution or nutty conspiracies not even their mother believes

Is precisely how you end up with a place with people that "have heated debates about the jewish question" and "transgender ideology". And that stops being a place where opinions can just be exchanged as peers imo, when your place becomes inherently hostile to certain groups of people not for their opinions but for who they are, you also create a bubble - usually an alt-right one.

it was an organically evolving petri dish of whoever and whatever was plugged in. By limited who and what can plug in, they are missing the point completely

I disagree that this was something good or that we should ever want again. Put a bunch of lifeforms on a petri dish, and the stronger will eat the weaker. The intolerant will scare away the people they "disagree" with. I understand that those unmoderated petri dishes must exist if we want to advocate for a free internet, but I absolutely don't get why you'd want to get your feet in there, unless you really vibed with them and thought of places like the yesterweb as a "trans circlejerk" or whatever they called it. Yeah there might be a lot of cool and good natured people and discussions, but having to coexist with alt-right fellows to access those discussions is something most people wouldn't want.

I think the Yesterweb team said it best with this guideline:

The commitment to social responsibility and partisanship:

Safety and self-defense are a basic necessity of any community, which includes the recognition that it is impossible to accommodate all people in the same social space due to the inevitability of antagonistic beliefs. Diversity of opinion is respected up until certain bounds that reflect oppressive intentions such as discrimination against age, sex, gender, class, nation/race/ethnicity, religion, or disability. When these conflicts inevitably appear, the community must strive to understand the situation and take the side of the oppressed at any cost. In cases where it is ambiguous whether the harm is intentional or accidental, an investigation through dialogue is necessary to determine malice or ignorance, as ignorance can be resolved with education.

And also, personally, I'm sooooo fucking tired of people being mean online "ironically" or whatever. I'm purposefully fleeing stuff like twitter drama and people blasting eachother in reddit comments, so joining a place where people call you slurs just to mess around and "call eachother names in an effort to poke eachother into defending and reinforcing on what we believe" feels like jumping from the frying pan into the fire.
I really really want good faith discussions, hell arguments even! But, where people can just be sincere, let their guards down, and be humane and kind and respectful to others.

Which btw - if you guys enjoy those kind of places and hell especially if you're "toxic users" there, kudos on your for being so respectful to us here. I don't understand y'all, but thank you for engaging with me on this. I hope it comes across that I'm not trying to grill you guys personally or anything. I'm a bit concerned because I know of people who slowly get radicalized into proper hatred by hanging out on toxic/edgy/chan-esque places and slowly get more and more into the alt-right bubble, which is why I look at these places with a lot of skepticism and worry.

[madness]

Is precisely how you end up with a place with people that "have heated debates about the jewish question" and "transgender ideology".

this is exactly what happened. yesterweb used to link to agora road until a lot of our members brought to attention some incredibly disturbing conversations that were being had there

at first we thought: ok, well it's not our space, we aren't moderating it, and we are on good terms with the owner, and are even trying to help them change the culture for the better. the owner really did want things to change. perhaps not enough, but given a couple of dedicated months or years of effort it could turn into somewhere we would be comfortable associating with

but this was a mistake. we don't have the time and energy for that, and it was clear that our community wasn't going to put up with it either. social laws are more powerful than ideals - our association with harmful people has consequences

in reality why would I hang out around people who deny my right to life? as soon as someone says my type of people deserve to be shot, why would I stay there? I wouldn't subject myself to that kind of abuse, so I would leave

and we saw it a lot in practice: trans people and transphobes cannot coexist in the same space, so you are forced to choose one. you really cannot accommodate both because in practice all the trans people will leave and all the terfs and bigots will turn it into a toxic shithole

more technically the problem is with the circulation of ideas. we can't know something about a person if they have never expressed their thoughts about it. so it is hypothetically possible to share the space if the hateful ideas are never expressed. there was at least one person who tried to do this, but one night they got drunk and called trans people an abomination, and then tried to pretend they were "out of their mind" when they said it, so they were banned. while hypothetically possible, so far it seems that hateful people are unable to contain their hate very long when surrounded by those that they hate. it's all very interesting from a social science perspective and it's very important that community leaders have at least the basic social consciousness to understand this

i think melonland and, for example, agoraroad are opposite forums where agoraroad doesn't really care if you make fun of other users or have heated discussions, where melonland has 0 tolerance for it. I posted on both for a while, but personally had to delete my account on melonland because the moderation was very heavy-handed... i was a bit shocked at the style of moderation

I suspect this is possibly because the owner doesn't have a separation between his online identity and his professional identity. it is extremely risky for him to be involved in any sort of controversy because of it (even if he isn't the one saying it, it could still reflect negatively on his "offline" identity because he is perceived to be responsible for it)

it's a pretty serious limitation imo but even if it wasn't the case, the balancing act between the extremes of zero tolerance and zero moderation is really draining so I can see why he would lean to an extreme

[RogerMexico]

They can be generalist or more niche, but bonus points if they share the general "commitments" and "etiquette" of Yesterweb in spirit, at least a bit.

If there's enough interest from current members here, I, or anyone, could certainly set up a phpBB for a sense of community continuity. It wouldn't be the first time that's ever happened.

[Cobra!]

In response to the conversation above, I think the idea of a "free speech" space is a Libertarian fantasy. One way or another, a place becomes a circle jerk. You have one for tolerance when you have rules and regulation, and one for intolerance when you don't. I'd much rather have the former than the latter.

It's one thing to be able to say what you want to friends and people you know closely, but on public spaces, the rules are different. It's like being at home versus being at a cafe or public meet up space. What you can and can't do wildly differs between the two places.

They can be generalist or more niche, but bonus points if they share the general "commitments" and "etiquette" of Yesterweb in spirit, at least a bit.

If there's enough interest from current members here, I, or anyone, could certainly set up a phpBB for a sense of community continuity. It wouldn't be the first time that's ever happened.

Go for it! Would love to stay connected to everyone here!

[Ray]

in reality why would I hang out around people who deny my right to life? as soon as someone says my type of people deserve to be shot, why would I stay there? I wouldn't subject myself to that kind of abuse, so I would leave

Ty for the added context about agora road, I had no idea about it until just yesterday.
100% agreed - I feel like, even for an activist whose intent is to deralicalize / connect with extremists and try to reason with them, it's a huge burden. You're not a neutral subject talking about something far away - you're the subject of their hatred. I can't imagine being subject to that all day long, online or offline, for fun.

and we saw it a lot in practice: trans people and transphobes cannot coexist in the same space, so you are forced to choose one. you really cannot accommodate both because in practice all the trans people will leave and all the terfs and bigots will turn it into a toxic shithole

Yeah!! That's what I tried to get at with the petri dish talk lol. You let *everything* run rampant, and the hateful will drown out the ones they hate, and you end up with a bubble either way.

In response to the conversation above, I think the idea of a "free speech" space is a Libertarian fantasy. One way or another, a place becomes a circle jerk. You have one for tolerance when you have rules and regulation, and one for intolerance when you don't. I'd much rather have the former than the latter.

Yeah, I feel the same way. Like madness said, striking a balance is really difficult and takes a lot of sustained effort (which btw, I really appreciate how the Yesterweb tried that imo!). So when in doubt, err on the side of not letting your community members behave like assholes

If there's enough interest from current members here, I, or anyone, could certainly set up a phpBB for a sense of community continuity. It wouldn't be the first time that's ever happened.

This is the first thing that's popped up in my head when I read about the closure - but tbh I don't have time at all to moderate a community, no matter how small. If you feel like you're up for the task though, by all means hell yeah! It would be good to at least have a "base station" where we can meet up and decide where to go with more time ahead of us, instead of like. Scuttering away in a hurry like mice leaving a drowning ship LOL

[Arevakhach]

It feels like kind spaces online are more and more scarce.

I partly apologize for referencing my list for this thread. I should have paid more attention that you were strictly seeking nice / kind / well-moderated spaces. I'm only partly sorry, however because I find this discussion that's arisen very interesting.

If you're comfortable sharing, how do you reconcile the hyper kind vibe of stuff like Melonland with the vibe of chan-esque users? They seem like complete opposites of a spectrum to me, and have a hard time imagining someone genuinely liking both. (but no worries if you think this might get long or way too controversial)

I believe in balance as an essential piece for navigating life. Hot and cold, life and death, light and darkness. MelonLand is delibretly light. My understanding of Melon's mentality is darkness is bountiful and his forum will not contribute to its abundance. MelonLand is kind, laid-back and fun.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. First off, like @glacial_pace, @madness & @Cobra wrote, MelonLand is his website, to manage as he wishes, on top of being a shared public space with the owner's identity attached to it. But besides that? Honestly? I also think he's kinda right. There IS a lot of negativity online. Maybe too much. I don't know...

What I am quite certain of however, is that life is NOT exclusively kind, laid-back and fun. Suffering, sadness, seriousness-- they exist, there is truth in them, life is full of them. I worry the positivity-exclusive places lead to things like their: inadequate acknowledgement, supression, dismissal, "positivity elitism", political manipulation, internalization.

My concern is with a mindset, a perspective, that a person may acquire in thinking positivity is the end-all, be-all. "You're not a 100% positive person? Then you are a lesser." We are black AND we are white. Innocent AND tainted, whole and broken.

I believe meaningful social communication is a balance of honesty & kindness. Honest, not just with others, but with one's self... I work in education, it is an extremely political profession. The majority of my time is spent in a "positivity-exlcusive" space. One of the reasons I made my site was to find a reprieve from that. A space where I can be HONEST. Honesty— Truth, isn't always pretty. A person's feelings, irrespective of whether they are wrong or right, the whole spectrum of 'em, are valid.

I know of people who slowly get radicalized into proper hatred by hanging out on toxic/edgy/chan-esque places and slowly get more and more into the alt-right bubble, which is why I look at these places with a lot of skepticism and worry.

The other side of the coin: The echo chambers of hate and negativity, the wallowing in darkness. Are they not rejecting light? Obviously, this is also a problem. Arguably more of one? Yeah, maybe. But there is truth here as well. It can be unpleasant to look at, to feel, to deal with, but it's there. You can't have a complete picture without it. And, maybe, the best path forward isn't around it, but through it? I. Don't. Know.

I would encourage the willing to be a bit more adventurous / bold. Obviously, within personal reason, but growth can also happen in places outside of one's comfort zones. In facing adversity and learning how to handle it. Attempting connection, rather than isolation.

[artemis]

still following this thread for chill hangout spaces but also for this very interesting conversation~

[OiStepanka]

still following this thread for chill hangout spaces but also for this very interesting conversation~

Very necessary conversation I feel. It is holistically internet centric. With the critical facts that affect our lives on "normie" social media spaces. Cool convo. Its conversations like this that make me feel like.. we're getting the internet back instead of having just content driven areas. Probably never before used terms (maybe) but this is why the blue web matters. The blue web to me is the Personal web. Some place to chill outside the Red web or the Corporate web. These are my definitions. Sometimes theres a purple web intersection points but.. the blue web having its space is important. know it might be a bit off topic but I just wanted to share that thought..

and cool links

[Ray]

What I am quite certain of however, is that life is NOT exclusively kind, laid-back and fun. Suffering, sadness, seriousness-- they exist, there is truth in them, life is full of them. I worry the positivity-exclusive places lead to things like their: inadequate acknowledgement, supression, dismissal, "positivity elitism", political manipulation, internalization.

My concern is with a mindset, a perspective, that a person may acquire in thinking positivity is the end-all, be-all. "You're not a 100% positive person? Then you are a lesser." We are black AND we are white. Innocent AND tainted, whole and broken.

I believe meaningful social communication is a balance of honesty & kindness. Honest, not just with others, but with one's self... I work in education, it is an extremely political profession. The majority of my time is spent in a "positivity-exlcusive" space. One of the reasons I made my site was to find a reprieve from that. A space where I can be HONEST. Honesty— Truth, isn't always pretty. A person's feelings, irrespective of whether they are wrong or right, the whole spectrum of 'em, are valid.

This was a fascinating read - I feel like I can't really understand where you're coming from, because I think we've simply had very different experiences?
For example, I sort of understand from your post that you often find yourself in spaces that value positivity more than anything else, and so kind of crave to see the hidden part of negativity that these spaces push you to ignore.

In my experience, for me, it's kind of the opposite. If I want to see "suffering, sadness, seriousness", I just need to take a walk in my city. Talk to some people. Turn the TV on. Read a newspaper. Hear out a friend going thru the roughest shit.
Life is so full of misery. I try my best to alleviate it, when I can, with the few energies and possibilities I have. But there's so much, that unless you take a break from it, you can end up in despair yourself.

I could connect to the wonderful communities of local artists that drink and smoke all day to dull the pain of a miserable existance in a scary, uncertain world. Or go get arrested at a rally for climate change. I could ask my partner how he's doing, now that the literal neo-fascist prime minister is cutting out funds to help dirt poor families. Ask my queer friends what's up and if they got hatecrimed lately. Kiss a girl at the train station again just to feel myself shake with fear and feel on my skin again just how much life isn't fair.

Even talking about education - my experience with these spaces was not that they were "positive" at all. Half the people I know got bullied in school, had teachers crush their dreams and ambitions, had to face injustices from higher ups and then be told to "get used to it, that's how life works" on top of it.

I've been in spaces, offline as well as online, that have made me miserable. Those spaces looked a hell lot like 4chan without the extreme bigotry, haha. When you're doing badly, it's so much easier to spiral down. I emphatise with people who get stuck in toxic spaces like those. You feel at home there and it's hard to get out. Feels impossible, maybe you don't want to, even. I don't ever want to be a tourist of misery. I've been there, and I know that sadness and hatred - it rubs off on you.

I know my life has changed drastically for the better when, after some years of therapy and clawing out of certain spaces and mindsets and relationships, I was finally able to focus on joy! On my hobbies, my passions, what makes my heart beat, and sincere and meaningful connections with other people. It's not that I am ignoring all that's bad in the world - it's that I'm focusing on resilience, and joy in spite of this shit ass world I live in. And hanging out with kind folks has been so, so so vital for me. We're all in this together, trying to carry on. Trying to make this world just a little bit kinder. Even if it's by a smudge. We all need it so, so much.

In facing adversity and learning how to handle it. Attempting connection, rather than isolation.

Of course! I am happy I'm having this conversation with you for example but also, you can't fault, for example, a woman, for not hanging out in mysoginistic spaces. There's a difference between connection (which can only happen when both parties respect each other and are willing to have a conversation) and what basically amounts to self harm, burning out trying to understand someone that wants you dead or enslaved or worse. There comes a moment when you need to put your foot down and think about your well being, as even just reading a few threads of 4chan-style toxicity can be incredibly, incredibly draining when they're about you or the people you love.

--

Probably never before used terms (maybe) but this is why the blue web matters. The blue web to me is the Personal web. Some place to chill outside the Red web or the Corporate web. These are my definitions. Sometimes theres a purple web intersection points but.. the blue web having its space is important. know it might be a bit off topic but I just wanted to share that thought..

Oh, what do you mean by red and blue web? Do these colors have any significance / were they used for definitions before?
And man, the forum is closing in like 20 days, let's have a good one!! Embrace the off topic! Let's just share things! <3

[OiStepanka]

This was a fascinating read - I feel like I can't really understand where you're coming from, because I think we've simply had very different experiences?
For example, I sort of understand from your post that you often find yourself in spaces that value positivity more than anything else, and so kind of crave to see the hidden part of negativity that these spaces push you to ignore.

In my experience, for me, it's kind of the opposite. If I want to see "suffering, sadness, seriousness", I just need to take a walk in my city. Talk to some people. Turn the TV on. Read a newspaper. Hear out a friend going thru the roughest shit.
Life is so full of misery. I try my best to alleviate it, when I can, with the few energies and possibilities I have. But there's so much, that unless you take a break from it, you can end up in despair yourself.

I could connect to the wonderful communities of local artists that drink and smoke all day to dull the pain of a miserable existance in a scary, uncertain world. Or go get arrested at a rally for climate change. I could ask my partner how he's doing, now that the literal neo-fascist prime minister is cutting out funds to help dirt poor families. Ask my queer friends what's up and if they got hatecrimed lately. Kiss a girl at the train station again just to feel myself shake with fear and feel on my skin again just how much life isn't fair.

Even talking about education - my experience with these spaces was not that they were "positive" at all. Half the people I know got bullied in school, had teachers crush their dreams and ambitions, had to face injustices from higher ups and then be told to "get used to it, that's how life works" on top of it.

I've been in spaces, offline as well as online, that have made me miserable. Those spaces looked a hell lot like 4chan without the extreme bigotry, haha. When you're doing badly, it's so much easier to spiral down. I emphatise with people who get stuck in toxic spaces like those. You feel at home there and it's hard to get out. Feels impossible, maybe you don't want to, even. I don't ever want to be a tourist of misery. I've been there, and I know that sadness and hatred - it rubs off on you.

I know my life has changed drastically for the better when, after some years of therapy and clawing out of certain spaces and mindsets and relationships, I was finally able to focus on joy! On my hobbies, my passions, what makes my heart beat, and sincere and meaningful connections with other people. It's not that I am ignoring all that's bad in the world - it's that I'm focusing on resilience, and joy in spite of this shit ass world I live in. And hanging out with kind folks has been so, so so vital for me. We're all in this together, trying to carry on. Trying to make this world just a little bit kinder. Even if it's by a smudge. We all need it so, so much.

In facing adversity and learning how to handle it. Attempting connection, rather than isolation.

Of course! I am happy I'm having this conversation with you for example but also, you can't fault, for example, a woman, for not hanging out in mysoginistic spaces. There's a difference between connection (which can only happen when both parties respect each other and are willing to have a conversation) and what basically amounts to self harm, burning out trying to understand someone that wants you dead or enslaved or worse. There comes a moment when you need to put your foot down and think about your well being, as even just reading a few threads of 4chan-style toxicity can be incredibly, incredibly draining when they're about you or the people you love.

Really.. Really well said. I felt that. In a world that can act as a vacuum of darkness, finding uplifting areas are essential.
--

Probably never before used terms (maybe) but this is why the blue web matters. The blue web to me is the Personal web. Some place to chill outside the Red web or the Corporate web. These are my definitions. Sometimes theres a purple web intersection points but.. the blue web having its space is important. know it might be a bit off topic but I just wanted to share that thought..

Oh, what do you mean by red and blue web? Do these colors have any significance / were they used for definitions before?
And man, the forum is closing in like 20 days, let's have a good one!! Embrace the off topic! Let's just share things! <3

When I think of the the Corporatized web and the Personal web. I really needed to sit back a moment and think to myself about what is really going on with the internet. A place I grew up and saw develop from practically it's infancy (just shy of missing out on the 90s net because well, I was a baby myself.)

In order for myself to have a proper division in my mind for both spaces (that often intersect.) I wanted to think in colors. I call the corporate web/business web focused on Ads and Traffic and the general population of users on the most popular social media sites as the Red Web, it's about action, drive, profit, sales, getting recognized, use of Algorithms and more complex math and coding and all the rest of the experiences and nuances that we have come to dwell near in regards to the modern internet experience.

The Blue Web, to me, is the Personal web. Spaces like these where you have people who do the grass roots work that is the back bone of the internet. That which predates social media and is also the prior foundation for what it would become today.

- (Though who would have guessed websites would be as active and as complex with both the positives and negatives of a city. Reminds me specifically of New York City. a popular city thats filled with traffic, good underground places, but still lots of issues to be negated and one of the biggest advertising budgets you could ever imagine. Half of visiting that city is seeing the ads, they are literally a tourist attraction. Like a moth to a flame. But, I digress.)

It includes people creating their own spaces i.e. websites, perhaps mastodon instances, forums like this using the Gemini Protocol etc. etc. and most importantly: Getting your hands dirty: Doing Real Work. Not benefiting off of existing structures, auto correct, skillset limiting crutches that essentially make you an automaton slowly.. that "mommy/daddy" big corp websites take care of with simple site structures with white backgrounds that allow for no creativity once so ever (if so desired, nothing wrong with a white space.. just, I like options.) No. It's DIY culture and it's personal. You deal with people Directly. No (of at least, less, algorithms.) No manipulation. Just Person to Person interactions. The most meaningful of all.

Sure, you might run into your "neighborhood assholes" every now and then. You may have to defend territory. But.. it's worth it and the best thing is. Cancel culture can't easily take it away from you like on mega social media platforms because you are unpalatable to them (minus you know, certain folks who did extremely questionable stuff, that is another matter. I'm only referring to bigotry.) And your website isn't a profile i.e. it's not an "apartment" in a building someone else owns while you pay rent for the benefit to be there. It is Yours.

It's a place to get away from the noise. It's the non commercial district. It's a residential district online, imo. With community gathering halls. Gazebos. The more I'm writing it dawning on me that it .. kind of reminds me of the suburbs. HOWEVER. Ones that allow for individualism and not everyones "house" is Exactly the same in some shape or form. Maybe a suburb of Tiny Houses and camper vans and stuff folks customized. That'd.. be pretty sweet existing IRL. But yeah those are my thoughts so far. Building as I go.

Really glad to have a forum.. to return to a place where you can have and write out a full thought instead of dealing with the comment section in certain places with people who point out all the holes in your thinking because idk.. we only had what? 70 characters and many suffer from the TLDR and they are most likely never coming back

[Cobra!]

Oh yeah, I forgot, there’s a nice wee Klonoa forum I frequent that I should share here. It only has a handful of active members, but we’re always happy to see people join!

https://forums.untamedheart.us/

[Blog47177]

https://www.proboards.com/

We can set up show here even though but the forum has to be a different name but the same structure as Yesterweb. And we cannot use the name Yesterweb though.

[Cobra!]

https://www.proboards.com/

We can set up show here even though but the forum has to be a different name but the same structure as Yesterweb. And we cannot use the name Yesterweb though.

That’s an option, but their privacy policy is kind of yikes, but it looks like you can opt out of any data collection if you have an account. So I would do that if I were you guys.

I would personally prefer if someone self hosted a forum like Melonland does, but I imagine that’s going to be headache.

[Ray]

https://www.proboards.com/

We can set up show here even though but the forum has to be a different name but the same structure as Yesterweb. And we cannot use the name Yesterweb though.

Well, for the moment, I've set up a little forum for us to keep in contact! https://the-web-raft.boards.net/
It's meant to be a little hub for us to share other spaces, seek out friends, create groups etc. Not a replacement for the YW forums, but might give us more time to create alternatives!

That’s an option, but their privacy policy is kind of yikes, but it looks like you can opt out of any data collection if you have an account. So I would do that if I were you guys.

I would personally prefer if someone self hosted a forum like Melonland does, but I imagine that’s going to be headache.

I don't have the skills to do it - nor the time to mod a community, so proboards is a quick n cheap way to get people all together in the meantime. Maybe we can work out a way to create a new YW-esque forum, and see if there's enough people willing to mod it and contribute! ^^ I hope the Raft can be a little safe spot to collect our thoughts and decide how to move on forward. If not, well, I've tried!

[OiStepanka]

https://www.proboards.com/

We can set up show here even though but the forum has to be a different name but the same structure as Yesterweb. And we cannot use the name Yesterweb though.

Well, for the moment, I've set up a little forum for us to keep in contact! https://the-web-raft.boards.net/
It's meant to be a little hub for us to share other spaces, seek out friends, create groups etc. Not a replacement for the YW forums, but might give us more time to create alternatives!

That’s an option, but their privacy policy is kind of yikes, but it looks like you can opt out of any data collection if you have an account. So I would do that if I were you guys.

I would personally prefer if someone self hosted a forum like Melonland does, but I imagine that’s going to be headache.

I don't have the skills to do it - nor the time to mod a community, so proboards is a quick n cheap way to get people all together in the meantime. Maybe we can work out a way to create a new YW-esque forum, and see if there's enough people willing to mod it and contribute! ^^ I hope the Raft can be a little safe spot to collect our thoughts and decide how to move on forward. If not, well, I've tried!

You're Awesome Ray! I signed up for your forum cause I'm For-it LOL

[Ray]

You're Awesome Ray! I signed up for your forum cause I'm For-it LOL

Yesss lovely to have you there!! <3 also taking this time to tell you, thank you for the kind words in the forum shutting down thread!! :'3 I'd love to keep in contact so I'm really glad you joined there too
(I am sort of gathering my thoughts on the other thread since it's gotten so, so interesting, but also y know it requires my full attention to focus on what I'd like to say haha)

[OiStepanka]

You're Awesome Ray! I signed up for your forum cause I'm For-it LOL

Yesss lovely to have you there!! <3 also taking this time to tell you, thank you for the kind words in the forum shutting down thread!! :'3 I'd love to keep in contact so I'm really glad you joined there too
(I am sort of gathering my thoughts on the other thread since it's gotten so, so interesting, but also y know it requires my full attention to focus on what I'd like to say haha)

You are most welcome and it's so true you really are a "ray" of sunshine here in the interwebz. Seriously kudos to you! and I definitely feel the same about keeping in contact!

Also, yeahhhhh that thread got really heavy! Interesting heavy.. but still. I was a little worried we wouldn't see you again because while there are many manyyyyy good points being made over there... When someone sees what they love in a different light than expected from the onset.. some individuals may react differently from shock. And I was like..uhhhh o_o LOL
Glad to see you're still here! and taking the time to take it all in makes perfect sense ^_^'

[artemis]

i've just signed up too ray!~

[RogerMexico]

They can be generalist or more niche, but bonus points if they share the general "commitments" and "etiquette" of Yesterweb in spirit, at least a bit.

If there's enough interest from current members here, I, or anyone, could certainly set up a phpBB for a sense of community continuity. It wouldn't be the first time that's ever happened.

I bought a domain, more to come.

[Cobra!]

Also joined The Web Raft. Will make for a good placeholder until someone else makes a proper forum to migrate to.

[SolidStateSurvivor]

Fair amount of chatter about Agora in your thread, but have you considered their perspective?
Most of Agora's users wanted a 'self proclaimed' alternative web community like YW to succeed on principle alone.

Of course there's the shared interest of "the old internet" and vaporwave adjacent aesthetics, but even ideologically we all seem to lament the over commercialization of the web. Both groups seem to share the universal truth, even if some of the symptoms and causes we point to differ.

Idk what it is about netizens these days, but you do realize you don't have to agree with every post you see on a shared website to actively use it, right? The brilliant aspect of Internet communication is the ability to debate in good faith. Contrary to popular belief, this isn't a lost art.

[Ray]

Idk what it is about netizens these days, but you do realize you don't have to agree with every post you see on a shared website to actively use it, right? The brilliant aspect of Internet communication is the ability to debate in good faith. Contrary to popular belief, this isn't a lost art.

I've read your post on there - thank you for sharing that thread. The "nutty conspiracies" quote was directly taken from the thread Arevakhach linked, and it was written by "a mod representing the agora road".
I apologize if I've midjudged your space as "alt-right". I've seen other users in the thread you linked concerned about Agora's optics. Yes: even if, as you say, most users there aren't in the alt-right sphere, it's easy to clock the Agora that way. Might be a few bad apples that spoil the bunch, but those bad apples are there, and make the space toxic for certain kinds of people when left unmoderated. I did go check out more threads, gave it another chance in a way - my more broad opinion, honestly, remains.

I don't care if people there are calling eachother slurs, using 4chan lingo, sharing conspiracy theories, and complaining about "trannies" ironically, or to be subversive, or edgy, or what.
Yes, there are absolutely well written posts, interesting discussions, good-faith arguments. Are they worth the toxic climate they're surrounded with? For me personally, no. This is an individual decision.

I am not interested in "the old internet" in itself, honestly. Yes, I'm into personal websites a lot! I loooove seeing how creative and personal people get. I'm into how much easier it was to make friends when everyone was hanging out in smaller, "cozier" spaces. I'm not into how unruly it was, I don't miss the times when being funny meant seeing how many obscenities you could fit in your post and get away with. My intent with this post was to find communities where I (and others) could make friends and have a good time. If someone who saw this thread decided the Agora was a good place for that and joined, good for them!

Personally, I don't find any fun in debating people on their beliefs all day. Especially strangers on the internet that are inconsequential to me. Likewise, I don't find it pleasant to hang out on a website where I find I disagree with a majority of posts. It might be a good "experiment", in a "challenge yourself and seep yourself into a culture you dislike" way, but I wouldn't consider it a good use of my time to hang out there for fun. I hope this made sense.

This reminds me of a person I met the other day at a lunch with some friends. He was a friend's brother, and he spent all the time cracking jokes about the holocaust, jewish people, black people, and other assorted minorities.
No one really laughed at his jokes, the running bit was that it was funny how edgy and cringy his jokes were. They all tolerated him. So did I.

I spent the entire day helping him grill meat. He's a nice guy actually, we chatted a bit about his field of study, which interests me greatly, and he's very funny and kind when not trying to be edgy.
Do I have any interest of hanging out with him again? No. I'd prefer to hang out in the sewers alone than go to the beach with him. I find his insistence to be disrespectful insufferable. I'm sure he's not "alt-right" or anything, mind you. But why would I, out of my own volition, be friends with someone as childish and offensive?

[madness]

[It might be a good "experiment", in a "challenge yourself and seep yourself into a culture you dislike" way, but I wouldn't consider it a good use of my time to hang out there for fun.

this is more of an aside since you asked me in another thread of things I tried in the past, and this was one of them

people in online spaces in general do not respect the minority opinion, even if there are explicit rules or guidelines encouraging that respect. if they don't deeply understand the need to respect the minority opinion, they will always find ways to attack it or ignore it, gross or subtle

something that I call "polite suppression" is extremely common. the more controversial your view is - relative to the majority opinion - the more likely your view will be buried with a distraction, with a change of topic, or something of that nature. people devise creative ways to avoid cognitive dissonance, or to entirely stop a constructive conversation from happening that goes against their beliefs. redditors especially are notorious for this

not only is it not fun to be an outsider, but even if you actively try to integrate yourself, you may never be truly accepted, only formally

[Starfia]

Two forums I've looked forward to visiting daily for the past few months. One is the Yesterweb Forum, and the other is "Blue Dwarf".

A little about it:

It's written entirely from scratch by the host and sole moderator, who continues to develop and upgrade it over a year after they started it. I still find it a little clunky, but their evident drive has always outshined that for me.

Lightweight, no JavaScript, apparently hosted entirely from one Raspberry Pi, and a focus on support for early browsers.

To this point it's had over a hundred users sign up, but most days only a handful post and converse actively.

I've been around since before the Web, the host has been around since before me, and I think the same is true of some regulars. For people curious about the history of not just the early Web, but of the early Internet and even of early computers, these can be interesting people to know. I think that possibly even the Yesterweb has lacked this valuable perspective.

The host is highly tolerant and endlessly civil, and models policy around this. They call it a place for "free speech," but will specify they mean permission to discuss any "topics," as opposed to permission to be unfriendly towards other users directly.

Many topics have been raised there, but plenty has never been discussed there, which I take to mean there's plenty of room for people whose interests don't match those of the current users.

If anyone would like to inspect it or sign up after the Yesterweb closes, I imagine I'll be there. Please say hi. ^ ^

[abacus]

Fair amount of chatter about Agora in your thread, but have you considered their perspective?
Most of Agora's users wanted a 'self proclaimed' alternative web community like YW to succeed on principle alone.

Of course there's the shared interest of "the old internet" and vaporwave adjacent aesthetics, but even ideologically we all seem to lament the over commercialization of the web. Both groups seem to share the universal truth, even if some of the symptoms and causes we point to differ.

Idk what it is about netizens these days, but you do realize you don't have to agree with every post you see on a shared website to actively use it, right? The brilliant aspect of Internet communication is the ability to debate in good faith. Contrary to popular belief, this isn't a lost art.

That community seems so fucking cool! I have never heard of it but I'm glad it was brought up here. Such a rich discussion there too. Some of those users knew more about the YW history than I did because they were referencing the mods' political beliefs which I didn't know about until the shutdown! It seems like they did care a lot and probably liked having a neighbor like YW.

They do seem to be very direct in their judgments which I can see can upset some empaths or sensitive people. But honestly, it makes for a good discussion!

YW seems to cater to the more "Chobits" and "Cardcaptor" groups of people. I think that comes from Sadness and Cinni who seemed to be the reference points in this community. They are very bold in their design and presentation and although may be quiet and shy have a confidence that makes everyone look at them as people to look up to. This is my take though, I love that vibe, and it's very sweet and caring, which is why I joined!

Its extremely fascinating seeing the different personality and presentation just from YW and Agora alone. Agora definitely has that darker "Lain", ".hack///infection", "Adult Swim" vibe ahah.

Honestly, I could see having an adjacent community like that as an opportunity to reflect and see an outsider's perspective. It's like therapy, you want to ask someone who doesn't know who you are but is open to discussing your issues, so you tell them all you got and then with they have the unbiased take that you may have been blinded to see because you didn't want to think about it!

It seems also that the core members of that community actually care. I might go check out that place more.

Yet, I do understand madness' perspective. I can only vaguely come to understand what it is like to have the whole world against you and how that alters your perspective on humanity. When toxic, bigoted behavior is exhibited even briefly I am sure one who has dealt with it their whole life is going to check it off their list. Yet, it seems that the members in that thread were very upset about it too, saying it was taken care of. Yet, I think they need to understand the transgender experience and LGBT experience, especially as I stated above. They are ostracized from society, judged by members of their families and sometimes even kicked out of their homes. I have come to appreciate the community here because it takes into consideration catering to trauma, and making people feel comfortable here. which Agora Road doesn't seem to make their priority, which they don't have to.

Yet, I am not a part of the LGBT community so who am I to say what they do? Maybe the members of the LGBT community feel comfortable being a part of Agora. They say they have an LGBT community within theirs so maybe it just comes down to personal experience and preference. I personally know a lot of edgy LGBT people lol.

It's still a fun community it seems. Although I should say upon viewing the "latest post" section on the home page and seeing "Is it gay to like dicks if you don't like dudes?" I rolled my eyes lol. Being from a background of an art school education, this kind of degenerate ironic discussion is something you'd expect from social outcasts (Im one of them). It's not everyone's cup of tea, and from someone who has been around that for their entire life, I am starting to grow out of it. But it's for shits and giggles and the thread that devolved from it was pretty enjoyable to read.

I'd rather come to YW though for a more constructive discussion and the overall supportive vibe it gives. I don't mean to belittle Agora though, they seem to foster quite the community interaction and I even see disillusionstarshiptrooper is on there whom I found through instagram! They have an amazing video game project I recommend checking out.

Another thing I would like to point out is some of the Agora Road comments on the thread brought up "Purity Tests" pertaining to making a website. I would love to hear Sadness' and Madness take on this because for me, the whole point of the YW was to get rid of the intimidation of making a website. I don't think it's mandatory to make a website to be a part of YW is it? But are they saying it's the overall general vibe they feel from seeing the community? Is the invisible rule to be cool on YW is to make a website?

I would say that a lot of YW members wouldn't think so and don't really care about the perceived hierarchy having a website does, but here we are with websites, what do people without websites think about our community?

I am tired though, now ahah i'll post more later, cheers.

[Cobra!]

I think most of the criticisms in Agora are valid, except the forum isn’t really dead, just slower, and the alt-right response.

As for alt-right, if these guys actually are alt-right, then no, it’s not just about “accepting opposing opinions”, when the opinion in question is just hating other races, genders, sexualities, etc., it’s just unjustifiable hatred, and the idea is to create a cult around this and “recruit” other people. That’s what we’re trying to stop.

Though I don’t go on that forum, so I’m not sure if they actually are like that. I saw a thread where the author made a massive post supporting “gender critical”, and I hope they were banned or at the very least driven away by others, like some on the forum claimed happens. (I noped out before finishing the original post, though, so I’m not sure.)

Taking that into account, they seem to me, based on everything else I saw, to simply be a more extreme version of what we’re doing. The “blank panthers” of the movement, if you will. I’m sure those on that forum are reading this, so feel free to correct me. Also, hi.

[madness]

I would love to hear Sadness' and Madness take on this

damn, you know, I didn't even look at that thread because I knew what it was going to be like, and now that you asked my opinion on it I had to go take a look and I was right, so this is what I see:

• someone taking quotes of my writing out of context and inserting their own meaning

• someone who says they are "well integrated" into the community (I know who they are, and they definitely are not) saying "nobody knows what this chip on their shoulder is about".

• a soapbox moment of someone who doesn't know anything about us abstracting us into a stereotype

• some weird ideas about us trying to be non-controversial and a lot of assuming our intentions

• one person there who holds a grudge against us because of a disagreement (over discussing NSFW topics, if I remember correctly)

• just a ton of general misunderstanding

and I knew that this would happen, because they are not having conversations with us, they are having conversations with others about us. that's not going to be a particularly productive conversation. and I hope the past two weeks of discussion in the forum shutting down topic have been a good example of why, if you genuinely want to understand what someone is trying to say, you go and ask them directly, instead of trying to figure it out with others who also don't know. solid relationship advice. like we've always been available to talk to, homies

take this for example, since SolidStateSurvivor is here, there's no real reason to pretend that they're not, here's their quote from agora road (I don't know why I can't copy text from that website):

they wanted a formal organization in line with the founding group's ideals more than adhering to the advertised ideal of self reliance

I have no idea what you are talking about, but I'd love if you elaborated on what you mean.

you could only join the cool kids club if you passed the "purity test"...merely questioning things would exclude oneself from their hierarchy

still have no idea what you are talking about. what purity test? are you saying you would have broken the rules in our community spaces? the rules may not have been perfect but they seemed to have worked pretty well, though I'd like to know what kind of purity you think we are expecting from you

like yes, a lot of the members were needlessly persecutory. there's not much we can do about that, we didn't have the time or resources to educate everyone on the best way to handle things and sometimes we have to err on the side of the established majority. because having an ideal constructive space takes a lot of work. is it that you are afraid of facing social consequences for stating your beliefs? I can understand that, but unless I know exactly what it is that would cause you to fail your purity test, I can only speculate.

they also made the mistake of valuing quantity over quality

never did we ever want it to grow as big as did. we probably should have closed things to new registrations at some point, but we were indecisive about it, mostly because we thought it would be unfair to newcomers. but once again it seems that you're assuming our train of thought, like everyone else in that thread who didn't bother to talk to us about any of it. but in the end there was no good solution, there's a handful of us and thousands of you. it definitely was our mistake for getting this big, but the thinking behind it was wayyy different than "valuing quantity of quality"

anyway, continuing.

Yet, I do understand madness' perspective. I can only vaguely come to understand what it is like to have the whole world against you and how that alters your perspective on humanity.

It's interesting that a lot of people misunderstood my example as being about being threatened for my gender. It was actually for my political views and personal beliefs. I rarely ever reveal personal details about myself online that don't need to be revealed, such as my gender and sexual orientation. But still generally you don't want to hang out around a place where people are questioning the validity of your existence, especially if you are already a persecuted minority. If only because there are billions of people and they are all very different, so we all have to choose wisely where we spend our limited time in this life - there's no limit on who you can meet. If Agora Road was the best online space humanity had to offer, maybe I'd be there, but I don't think it is since I have other connections that satisfy whatever Agora Road might have to offer me. If I had infinite time and energy, perhaps multiple clones of me, of course I'd be there too.

I don't think it's mandatory to make a website to be a part of YW is it?

nah never was, that was certainly a frequently asked question. we had to fight that notion a lot. I personally liked what sadness was doing making website building knowledge more accessible because I thought there was a chance we'd see a wider variety of people joining the community. Not sure it really had that impact though, but maybe it could take a couple more years for it to happen.

personally I would never expect anyone to have a website. you'd need a laptop or a desktop and significant free time. most of my childhood friends never had that. focusing too much on website building will make a space lean very weeb and gamer. I'd like to see more variety than that, it'd be healthy, and it would certainly foster intellectual growth.

Sorry if my responses are a little half-assed. I hope that our final summary will clear up a lot of misunderstandings, but we may have to accept that there will be no satisfying closure.

[Ray]

they are not having conversations with us, they are having conversations with others about us. that's not going to be a particularly productive conversation.
[...] if you genuinely want to understand what someone is trying to say, you go and ask them directly, instead of trying to figure it out with others who also don't know. solid relationship advice. like we've always been available to talk to, homies

It's pretty funny that for a community that's so used to long form discussions and is "interested in nuance", almost no one there bothered to spend ten minutes of their life to read the forum closing thread, before posting their opinions. I'm pretty sure it's one of the very few public posts here, accessible by all. It's not like they have nothing to go about the YW but speculations - they have an entire thread in which you organizers have explained with patience and in detail your reasons, point of views, goals, experiences. Hell, there's several members of YW & Agora both, if anyone had a genuine question, it could've been possible to bring it up to you guys via them. It would've been pretty nice to see a dialogue.

A lot of users are still taking very much for granted how you wanted to recreate ad Old Web space, or wanted people to make websites. It could be a fair and innocent assumption to make, but considering they're passing some very harsh judgement, it would've been much more productive to first make sure their assumptions are at least half-correct.

Also, once again - at least one user basically hinted at "passing the purity test" being... Not being transphobic?
It's hard seeing eye to eye with someone, where their standard of an unreasonable purity test is your standard for a decent human being.

Sorry, I know this post wasn't very constructive. This is the mindset I've come out with every time I've tried to browse the Agora - aimlessly frustrated.

[madness]

Hell, there's several members of YW & Agora both, if anyone had a genuine question, it could've been possible to bring it up to you guys via them. It would've been pretty nice to see a dialogue.

sorry, I should have made something a little more clear in my last post: there's at least three recurring participants in that discussion that I can identify were in both spaces who truly don't like us. they were never interested in dialogue, or they wouldn't have decided to split from the community.

we have been talking about this problem a lot in gathering our reflections recently, and the discussion started after our most recent conversation with melonking of melonland:

we wouldn't have had to split if we didn't have irreconcileable differences. if they were reconcileable, why would yesterweb and agora road be separate? why would yesterweb and melonland be separate? what about all the various offshoot chatrooms that were created as a result of our decisions over time? it would make more sense if we were all together as a unified community, wouldn't it?

there is something going on beyond the surface level of these conversations, and it requires social context and history to understand. anyone missing this context will be misled, and there's nothing that can really be done about it. being social is complicated and difficult, and it is worth asking: why do different social spaces exist? why didn't we all go along together?

[abacus]

t's interesting that a lot of people misunderstood my example as being about being threatened for my gender. It was actually for my political views and personal beliefs.

sorry I assumed, in your post my brain saw "my people deserve to be shot" and then right after it went to talking about transgender issues. I just took it and didn't think too deeply about it :d

nah never was, that was certainly a frequently asked question. we had to fight that notion a lot. I personally liked what sadness was doing making website building knowledge more accessible because I thought there was a chance we'd see a wider variety of people joining the community. Not sure it really had that impact though, but maybe it could take a couple more years for it to happen.

It would be cool to see some niche websites about I dont know vhs home videos or mushroom nomenclature. I feel like the weirder the niche the more dedicated they are to showcase it somewhere. Hopefully the ripples of the yesterweb ring throughout the land and bring forth the gravediggers and morticians who want to share their experiences online.

Thanks for taking the time to go through that forum ahah.

[abacus]

we wouldn't have had to split if we didn't have irreconcileable differences. if they were reconcileable, why would yesterweb and agora road be separate? why would yesterweb and melonland be separate? what about all the various offshoot chatrooms that were created as a result of our decisions over time? it would make more sense if we were all together as a unified community, wouldn't it?

there is something going on beyond the surface level of these conversations, and it requires social context and history to understand. anyone missing this context will be misled, and there's nothing that can really be done about it. being social is complicated and difficult, and it is worth asking: why do different social spaces exist? why didn't we all go along together?

Hopefully, someone makes it their sociologist dissertation lol. It's niche but damn it's even making my brain fuzzy just thinking about the systems at play, the differing forks in the road that lead to whatever rationale. What demographic seems to fall into whichever place they land. Within the forum shutting down thread Auzzie and Madness brought up differing classes of people. I never really thought about it like that before, I suppose because I didn't want to pigeonhole people into certain areas like that, but maybe it has something to do with this divide. Agora seems comfortable with their shitposting yet, YW wants to make a difference. I guess it has to do with subculture vs counter-culture. Not that a subculture is bad, I've been seeing it pop up a lot in LA. They got a really interesting alternative comic scene going on with Heavy Manners Library and the Hyperpop music scene with Subculture Party. (Eh? it even has it in the name (𓁹󠁘◡𓁹))

A quick tangent, I went to see this duo called Frost Children at a Subculture Party show and in the middle of the set, they start going on this rant/tirade about having a dream about Bob Dylan going on a final tour to every like high-end fashion district worldwide, and it leads to him crying and questioning what he had done to get there. They started talking to the crowd about the Beatniks and the Hippies and the counter-culture of that time and pointing at the crowd telling them what the hell are they doing to be a part of this scene. It was surreal I couldn't help but snap my fingers in jest while everyone was staring in confusion. I can't pinpoint what message they were trying to get across, maybe it had to do with who was there to be a part of the community and who was there to get high and fuck around. it was like a weird freeform poem that made me oddly emotional, it made everyone dissociate for a second it seemed like lol. PLUS the main speaker had an energy sword from Halo he was pointing around while ranting.

Your closing questions really defined my state of mind after finding these different communities. It's overwhelming! I can't tell if it was the funny-tasting strawberries I had this morning or this deep dive into internet communities thats giving me this headache xd.

EDIT: I should also add the Dekopon Magazine that has been getting some traction, very DIY magazine that pursues self-expression over consumerism. It seems those different scenes have some sort of intermingling and cross-pollination. It's quite interesting to watch it unfold. I don't know who's around LA but if you want some IRL communities to look into those are pretty good!

[madness]

^ my apologies again. I can understand now how my post could have led people to think I was talking only about a transgender issue when it was not. but I'm glad we can clear it up by talking

I also feel that your posts deserve better replies from me, but I am a bit in a rush since we close down in nine days and being the undertaker is proving to be a ton of work.

They started talking to the crowd about the Beatniks and the Hippies and the counter-culture of that time and pointing at the crowd telling them what the hell are they doing to be a part of this scene.

I think it's worth noting now that, in retrospect, the Hippies ended up being a subculture. Nothing fundamentally changed. I don't have a link with me but I remember someone sharing an advertisement from that era which had a hippie aesthetic, and it was Chevy or something, trying to sell their vans. there was a whole corporate Hippie thing going on. I met many ex-Hippies, I was friends with their children. they never changed anything, and were absorbed into the mainstream with all of its radical essence neutralized.

the only true countercultures that existed at that time within the USA were the national liberation movements such as the Black, Chicano, and Puerto Rican type. but they could not have been absorbed so they were buried, demonized, and neutralized in more violent ways. those cultures could not coexist in the same space, and that's what makes them truly counterculture.

Within the forum shutting down thread Auzzie and Madness brought up differing classes of people. I never really thought about it like that before, I suppose because I didn't want to pigeonhole people into certain areas like that, but maybe it has something to do with this divide.

We didn't want to, either. We obviously could not abstract from one or two individuals that the whole class itself was a problem. It only became evident when we started to take a more progressive direction. In fact our most serious community split was primarily composed of this class of people. It wasn't that we told them to get the fuck out, even if they interpreted it that way. They just want their own space now, where they can feel comfortable discussing their well-over-six-figure salaries and elite perspectives without being challenged by the lower classes for their complete detachment from reality.

In the end any individual from this class can reason that the class in general is terrible; you can be a tech worker and be consciously aware that your coworkers in general benefit too much from the current culture to make a change. it (the class) doesn't want any fundamental changes in things because it is largely comfortable with the way things are. it only wants a subculture it can enjoy and consume, a place to have fun because they deserve it after a long hard day at work pushing buttons for a $300k salary, while hiring a $30k maid to do their domestic labor and contracting a $30k laborer to maintain their homes and such.

moreso we just want these people to touch the ground and realize how they are within the top 1% income of all humanity, instead of being in denial or rationalizing it, or getting super defensive and insecure. they have a lot more to lose than the rest of us do, and it should at the very least be acknowledged

[Ray]

there is something going on beyond the surface level of these conversations, and it requires social context and history to understand. anyone missing this context will be misled, and there's nothing that can really be done about it. being social is complicated and difficult, and it is worth asking: why do different social spaces exist? why didn't we all go along together?

Ah right, I forget there's a lot of shared history I don't know about. Shame that the historian thing fell through - new people who join, by virtue of ignorance, of course tend to take things like this at face value.
Newcomers see this unfold for the first time, and kind of give it for granted that it was the first time for everyone else, too. ^^'

This question isn't well formed yet, but. How important do you think it is, for the sake of whatever good you've built, to strive to "get things right" about what happened between the YW and other communities it bumped heads with?
For example - I imagine putting myself in your shoes. And maybe I wouldn't give a damn if in the end, most people were mistaken about the YW's intention, and if YW's legacy will be defined by what opposing social spaces have to say about it. In the end, maybe I'd prefer to start anew, without connection to the YW nor the "old web" spaces. In a way, this feels too much like community drama for me to feel like it's of any importance at all, in the grand scheme of things. But how do you feel about all this? By ignoring previous events, do you think I'm underestimating the value of what is happening here?

edit: I didn't see your last post before hitting submit! Please don't worry about replying if you're busy. I'm curious, but I'm also very curious about the summary ;)

[madness]

This question isn't well formed yet, but. How important do you think it is, for the sake of whatever good you've built, to strive to "get things right" about what happened between the YW and other communities it bumped heads with?

Not terribly important, perhaps insignificant! Otherwise we would keep the forum open and continue to participate for months or years to come. One day someone will likely come to rewrite our history for us and we'll be gone, but by then we will have moved on to bigger things.

For example - I imagine putting myself in your shoes. And maybe I wouldn't give a damn if in the end, most people were mistaken about the YW's intention, and if YW's legacy will be defined by what opposing social spaces have to say about it. In the end, maybe I'd prefer to start anew, without connection to the YW nor the "old web" spaces. In a way, this feels too much like community drama for me to feel like it's of any importance at all, in the grand scheme of things. But how do you feel about all this? By ignoring previous events, do you think I'm underestimating the value of what is happening here?

The importance will be determined in the future by researchers far more intelligent than us. This is only an online community, at face value the drama is insignificant. What's important, in my opinion, is the abstraction of events that have theoretical significance for social science. You would need to already have that theoretical framework in your head in order to consciously grasp what's going on in an abstract level. There's nothing I can really do with the limited amount of time I have to help you see it the way that I do, so that at the very least you'd be able to critique it and point out our mistakes or deficiencies.

So, me continuing to pursue this "drama" has a couple of reasons behind it: (1) to advance the evolution of events, (2) to provide examples for at least the semi-conscious observers and participants, and (3) to confirm our significant findings through creating further evidence for it.

really at this point there's no need for further evidence, but I'm still morally obligated to lead by example, even if it isn't quite yet understood why I bother doing this. and if there is a chance that I can fight for a better outcome for this community before I leave, then I am going to take it

[abacus]

I think it's worth noting now that, in retrospect, the Hippies ended up being a subculture. Nothing fundamentally changed.

I took a deep dive into the Beatniks last year for some reason, I think I was attracted to it due to my poetry teacher bringing up a poet they look up to named Robinson Jeffers, a 20th-century US poet that covered a lot of environmentally conscious anti-anthropocentric themes (really brutally honest takes on humanity). This in hand inspired a poet/writer Gary Snyder who was among the original beat poets who inspired Allen Ginsburg and such. I wanted to know more about that culture since it seemed to be an integral part of US Culture and the counterculture of the 60s.

I do have to agree with you that the Hippies took what the Beats were doing and somehow skewed it in a way that wasn't the Beat's main intention it seems.

If you haven't watched it, I recommend this video of an interaction with one of the prominent members of the Hippie movement, Ed Sanders, and Jack Kerouac, who is an original beat. The show is kind of hosted by a pretentious a-hole, but it's better than what we have today by a landslide.

Jack Kerouac on Firing Line

Kerouac is a bit of a drunken troll in the video but there are some key moments where Kerouac bluntly rejects and assails the Hippie movement as ruining the whole movement the Beats laid out.

Allen Ginsburg on Firing Line

This is another video where Allen Ginsburg discusses a lot of interesting topics about censorship and media and how it silences art and expression. Again, the host is a pretentious a-hole but Ginsburg handles it really well. I recommend it too if you're interested in just a little bit more info about the culture of the 60's.

the only true countercultures that existed at that time within the USA were the national liberation movements such as the Black, Chicano, and Puerto Rican type. but they could not have been absorbed so they were buried, demonized, and neutralized in more violent ways. those cultures could not coexist in the same space, and that's what makes them truly counterculture.

I think this is where I should direct my attention next because this is where actual change was trying to occur it seems. I went on a trip to the east coast and happened upon a Smithsonian American Art Museum that was hosting a lot of the 60s Chicano Movement posters and artwork. It was moving, although looking back it is unfortunate that the artwork of the Chicano was put in a gallery so close to the place where the ideas of crushing their movement took place. It really catered to the labor unions of the farmers. The artwork that came out of it holds a lot of power which I am interested in. It's crazy how much a poster can do.

The tension of comfort and realizing your privilege is really interesting. It does seem a lot of people get defensive over it instead working to try and understand. Yet, the people they work for, the ones truly on top, seem to really not give a shit about the general populous and are more than willing to screw them over for some gain in power or profit. The Norfolk Southern Railway comes to mind with the train derailment that happened recently in East Palestine, Ohio. It really shows how CEOs and politicians aren't looking out for the lower classes and not taking accountability for the corruption they keep perpetuating.

The stereotypes exist of selfish greedy politicians and CEOs, but everyone just seems to accept that's the way it is. I guess its hard to get rid of cancer, I wonder if there's any healing that can be done or if it's just gonna end up burning down sometimes.

Sorry to get all political ahah. I really wanna try and focus on community and culture instead of the rotten shit that happens in the US government. I personally find it important to focus on expressing ourselves through culture and art. Thanks for taking the time in communicating with us. I'm super excited to read the summary. : o)

EDIT: JESUS I ALMOST DELETED MY WHOLE POST WHEN I EDITED IT I GOT SO SCARED

[abacus]

OH I should also add that the US media has a brilliant way of vilifying counterculture and simplifying them to stereotypes to belittle their actual intentions. It happened with the Beats so I wouldn't be surprised if it happened with the Hippies. It seems that capitalism absorbs these movements into their mainstream culture by...how should I say it...whitewashing it all?

[OiStepanka]

A bit preoccupied at the moment but I wanted to say, in looking up some of the history of the Beat generation thanks to abacus. I've begun to grasp why the YW movement, as madness has stated, is counter culture as opposed to subculture. I took the time to think about the evolution of different subcultures and how they started out with counter cultural intent, many of them. And it feels like they were always sidelined from getting to a true ultimate destination.. despite the waves they made in mainstream society that often times changed things for the better.

What I see is like this mirroring effect, where you have true archreitchs of a movement and then you will have the people who will mirror it. Some in the way that is exactly how the architects intended it to be and the others .. it's like being in a fun house. A distorted mirror. Though, there are also the people who have some specific qualities that, while a mirror.. they some how let you see beyond your own mirror, so to speak. I guess my point in saying this is ..

If this movement is going to truly counter culture, whether it be YesterWeb or future endeavors, the mirror you are going to have to consider is a mirror that leads to a new realm of logic. That is all I can really say. Do I know how to elaborate further? At this moment, no. But through dialogue, if anyone has anything to add to this. Feel free.